Movie Discussion: Avengers: Infinity War
Warning! This entire discussion contains spoilers for Avengers: Infinity War.
The Avengers and their allies must be willing to sacrifice all in an attempt to defeat the powerful Thanos before his blitz of devastation and ruin puts an end to the universe.
Genre: Action, Adventure, Sci-Fi
Director: Anthony Russo, Joe Russo
Writer: Christopher Markus (screenplay by), Stephen McFeely (screenplay by), Stan Lee (based on the Marvel comics by), Jack Kirby (based on the Marvel comics by), Joe Simon (Captain America created by), Jack Kirby (Captain America created by), Steve Englehart (Star-Lord created by), Steve Gan (Star-Lord created by), Bill Mantlo (Rocket Raccoon created by), Keith Giffen (Rocket Raccoon created by), Jim Starlin (Thanos, Gamora and Drax created by), Stan Lee (Groot created by), Larry Lieber (Groot created by), Jack Kirby (Groot created by), Steve Englehart (Mantis created by), Don Heck (Mantis created by)
Actors: Robert Downey Jr., Chris Hemsworth, Mark Ruffalo, Chris Evans
Release Year: 2018
Evie Totty | April 29, 2018
I agree with the lack of imagination there. I didn't think of it - but yeah. There are many more ways than just culling.
The time stone: ok when Strange said he viewed the upcoming conflict, I thought he meant theirs on Titan - not the whole thing. But given the very end - it does seem that way now. But we know we win.
Killing friends and loved ones. I don't know what I'd do. I sit here armchair quarterbacking it and saying that I'd be able to make the 'needs of the many outnumber the needs of the few' ... but who can say really? I do remember nodding 'yes' when Chris Evans' character made that decision in Snowpiercer.
I didn't even think of the Defenders honestly. But it seems that if Spidey could get there while on his way to MOMA that The Defenders would also make their way there to see WTF was going on.
My takeaways: I mentioned in my review - but the screenplay was very well done. Little quips here and there that were totally in character, the separation of each 'lead' hero into his (for now) type of style. (Iron Man et al, Guardians, Captain America's team, Thor). I felt the film was very well put together. On my third viewing, I was a little antsy ... but that's what I get for seeing it three times in four days. I loved all the little 'inside' nods (as mentioned above in Scott's)
And given my obsession with Captain America/Chris Evans, I will say that I noticed that there was NO story that revolved around Captain America. He was around, yes but he was not central to anything. So that tells me that he will likely be the focus of A4 (well - along with Thor and Captain Marvel). I wonder when they'll release the title? Two weeks? A month? Six months?
The people I saw it with are NOT happy. They were devastated by the losses and were upset that it was a two-parter and they didn't know that it was. I had to assure them multiple times 'they wouldn't kill Spider-Man permanently - he has a movie coming up' etc. I will say I was pretty sad that they eliminated all but one Guardian. :'(
Scott Hardie | April 30, 2018
I understand that the choices of who died at the end were driven by who needs to be present for the sequel (which I expect to feature Ant-Man, Wasp, and Hawkeye, but damn it probably not the Defenders), but it still felt like the filmmakers were laying it on kind of thick to kill characters who will star in already-announced sequels (Spider-Man and the Guardians) and widely-assumed sequels (Doctor Strange). I except Black Panther from that because they didn't know his movie would be such a hit when they made this one. Anyway, their deaths all but guarantee that there will have to be some kind of reset in the next movie that undoes the deaths. That may be true to the comics, but choosing different characters might have kept the audience in more suspense, wondering if it will be permanent.
Speaking of Spider-Man, won't the early marketing for his next movie (July 2019) give away that his death is undone in the next Avengers movie (May 2019)? I guess they could play loose with the timeline and have it take place before Infinity War, but that could be awfully confusing.
Any predictions for the title of the next Avengers movie? Marvel said it would spoil the ending of this if it was revealed too early. I predict Infinity Watch, but without much confidence that I'm right. Whether Adam Warlock will be in it is the biggest question.
Evie Totty | April 30, 2018
First - notice that Disney left S-M2 off their slate at CinemaCon last week
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And I know YOU know it will be undone. I had to explain that to my unknowing friends who were PISSED OFF - not devastated but LIVID - at the end of the movie.
I have no idea what the name of the movie could be honestly. I do expect Warlock to show up though because they would never tease something they wouldn't use like that. And he has an integral part in the Stones, right? (Again, real question. I know enough about the mythology to be dangerous, but not a reader)
Marketing - I wonder how much marketing they really need to do, you know? TA:IW has made 250M alone (it beat The Force Awakens) in the US and 630M globally. But you have a point. They'd have to wait til June to start realistically in order to make sure everyone has seen A4.
Dusting S-M was a very poor choice. Effective for those who don't 'know' like we do... but we will be informing those who don't of the truth.
Matthew Preston | May 2, 2018
Per Evie's request, here are the spoiler excerpts from my review.
The only real questions I left with were how 2 new movies about to be released before the next Avengers film will play into the timeline. Turns out that Ant-Man and the Wasp takes place in the moments after Civil War and during Infinity War. I'm guessing half of the cast will disintegrate at some point near the end. Captain Marvel takes place in the 90's, but should give some background on the pager that Nick Fury uses during the credits scene (Sam Jackson is a cast member of Captain Marvel). Disney has managed to get me really hyped for what's next. I scoffed at the trailer for the original Ant-Man when I first saw it... now I can't wait to see what's next.
Other random thoughts
- Peter Quill / Star-Lord was really made out to be a shit-bag in this one. I know he's obnoxious, but it takes a real talent to be more obnoxious than Tony Stark.
- Is Thor the only Asgardian still alive? Valkyrie is never mentioned, but she was also on the ship at the end of Ragnarok.
- I held it together for nearly every death and dissipation scene (because I'm convinced they'll all be back), but I nearly lost it for Peter Parker. Holy hell that was gut-wrenching and heart-stabbing to watch.
- Dr. Strange knows how this ends and this is likely the 1 out of 14 million timelines in which they "win".
- I'm still a bit unclear on Thanos' motivation. It's probably explained a bit more in the comics. This "villain" is one of the more complex we've seen (even more so than Ultron, which felt forced).
- Deadpool is another MCU film coming out before the next Avengers, but I'm guessing it's a completely different timeline than this.
- Not sure how it works with the licensing, but oh man what I would give to see some X-Men in the next Avengers movie. Logan ain't dead yet in this timeline...
Matthew Preston | May 2, 2018
Scott, the only thing I can think of surrounding Thanos' idea for population control is that he never really thought he'd achieve his goal of acquiring the stones. In the heat of the moment when Thor bested him, he followed through to make sure something got done. But yeah, his ingenuity is certainly lacking.
I have never watched Defenders before, but now I might take a gander.
Didn't Quill make the decision to kill Gamora? Thanos turned the gun into a bubble-gun. It was far too late at that point though.
My predictions for the next title will probably be something like rebirth/reborn or some phoenix reference (rising from the ashes).
(COMIC SPOILER): Apparently in the comic, Thanos turns Nebula into some sort of ethereal zombie. She ends up possessing the gauntlet and brings back all of the dead characters. Adam Warlock defeats Thanos and Thanos decides to become a mild-mannered farmer? (I'm still unclear on this).
Evie - I had come across this only recently, but yes, there have been other iterations of the Guardians in the comics. Apparently, the group that Sly Stallone is talking to in one of the end credit scenes of GOTG2, were a previous iteration.
A friend noticed recently that all of the original Avengers survived turning to dust. If Hawkeye is in the next Ant-Man film, I predict he survives, but Scott Lang dissolves. Contractual agreements maybe? My cousin made the joke that the studio was trying to trim the fat on production budgets by eliminating some big names. I'd imagine Benedict SlappdyBunch's salary requirements are pretty high.
Evie Totty | May 2, 2018
Matthew - he's had years to ponder alternative solutions. Him getting all the gems doesn't change the fact that he's always had a plan.
You are right! Peter did make the decision to kill her in the end. But she had to make him. I've seen a Nerdist News episode where they discuss possible titles. And most (if not all) are based on the comics' Infinity Stones/Gauntlet storylines.
And sadly - I'm afraid of which one they'll go for. Several contracts are up. I've heard that they will be rebooting the MCU. Images have been seen of Ant-Man in Avengers 1 New York. What does that mean? Does it mean they didn't really dissolve but went to a quantum dimension? And that's where Scott finds himself if he falls victim like you predict? SO many possibilities. Though I did not EVEN realize that the ones left standing were OG Avengers. Thanks for that tidbit!
We'll know much more after we get the title to A4 after May 11 I think. But we won't know ANYTHING for sure. Two years ago Chris Evans was all 'f YEAH I'll play Steve FOR-EV-ER' and now he's 'Gotta get off the train before they push you off' Which is real?
Thor being the only Asguardian: I also want to know what happened to Valkyrie and Korg. I didn't even see a body. PLUS Thor CLEARLY said that Thanos slaughtered half of his people. Does that mean the other half is off in some pod that escaped prior to the start of the film?
Yeah killing Spidey was a big deal EVEN THOUGH the vast majority of us knew it wasn't permanent. IMO they should not have killed him. The rest would have been more believable had they left him alive.
Agreed Dr. Strange knowing. But ... couldn't he have told them? (or did he?) Is that why Quill went 'Oh man!'. And Peter said 'I don't wanna go'... like he knew he was going too?
Correct - Deadpool is owned by FOX and not owned by Disney yet. Totally different timelines.
X-Men won't be in the next film (filmed back-to-back with IW) but yeah - if the merger goes through (I don't see why it wouldn't) then you bet your bippy X-Men will be in future films. And I read Scott Eastwood wants to play Wolverine.
Evie Totty | May 2, 2018
Interesting article on Vulture
Matthew Preston | May 2, 2018
Oh snap, I forgot about the quantum realm. Good read; so many possibilities.
Scott Hardie | May 2, 2018
I too was bothered by the movie overdoing Peter Quill's obnoxiousness and insecurity. It's not a good look for him, and I think they could have gotten him where they needed him to go without what felt like regressing the character. (Also, he's clearly not fat. I don't think that particular joke worked, but perhaps I'm just sensitive to fat jokes.)
There's frustratingly no answer in the film as to whether Valkyrie and Korg survived. The directors have said in interviews that those characters fled the ship before Thanos boarded, but that seems improbable given the ending of Thor: Ragnarok. It might be addressed in the future, or it might be ignored forever; who knows. This movie doesn't seem to care and so I guess I won't either.
The Defenders shows on Netflix are a mixed bag. Jessica Jones is terrific; Iron Fist is terrible; the rest are so-so. (I haven't watched The Punisher yet.) If you plan to watch them all, here's the intended viewing order, but if you just want to try one, I suggest Jessica Jones's first season.
Quill eventually did shoot Gamora, but long after it was too late to make any difference. He resisted for much too long.
Besides a welcome retcon of the end of Infinity War, I hope there is no larger reboot of the MCU, at least not without characters remembering what happened the first time. The X-Men series needed Days of Future Past to resolve its many continuity errors because of poor writing and poor planning along the way; the MCU doesn't have those problems. Disney and Marvel haven't made a bad movie in so long (IMO not since Thor: The Dark World in 2013) that I trust their judgment with how to handle the future of the MCU, reboot or not. If the problem is certain actors aging out or wanting out of their parts, then personally, I don't see any problem with recasting certain parts (they've already recast several times), so I'd prefer that option over rebooting. How is Paul Rudd not part of the aging-out conversation, when he's only 4 years younger than Robert Downey Jr.? As for Chris Evans, I'm sure you'd know better than me Evie, but I've seen interviews where he talked about his post-MCU career and how much he wants to direct and how much he didn't want to play Cap for too long, so it wasn't a surprise for me that he opted out, disappointed though I am to see him go.
Evie Totty | May 2, 2018
Well I haven't heard him say a peep about directing since that disaster he made a few years ago. I couldn't even get through it. That's right. I turned it off a half hour or so in. But here is where Chris said he'd stay if they asked him (and I'm sure paid him right). Granted it was 2.5 years ago.
“Listen, if Marvel wants me they got me. I’ve never had such a relationship where you have such—I mean look at my resume, I’m used to being on set being like, ‘Ah is this movie gonna be terrible?’ Marvel just can’t stop making great movies, they do it in their sleep. It’s wonderful directors and producers and actors and scripts, and it’s like a playground as an actor.”
So unless there is some sort of bad blood that has happened in the past couple of years, I can't help but wonder if his comments New York Times last month are a red herring.
"You want to get off the train before they push you off"
I know he loves Steve. And he loves working for Marvel.
I honestly don't think any of these guys want to leave their roles. That decision will have to be made for them.
Scott Hardie | May 2, 2018
Yeah, I don't get the impression that anybody definitely wanted or wants out, except Anthony Hopkins and maybe Natalie Portman.
It's so weird to think of what Banner/Hulk would be like now if Edward Norton had stayed in the part. The character has evolved so much. Banner used to be a brilliant scientist, a mind to rival Stark's and Strange's, but now he's more of a blundering loveable oaf, a sitcom dad type.
Evie Totty | May 3, 2018
Oh my gosh you are right! Now that it's been pointed out - I'm sad that it's happened :(
Scott Hardie | May 4, 2018
If indeed the next two movies take place before this incident, then there's no film really exploring what it's like to live in this Thanos-affected world, other than I presume the first act of Avengers 4 and maybe a few episodes of Agents of SHIELD. That feels like a missed opportunity to me. I read the original comics when they came out; I remember that it was a company-wide event. Every comic book series, even minor ones like Sleepwalker, tied into the crisis and depicted the world without half of the people in it. and how the survivors coped. It would be a creatively fertile ground for any of their movies to play with. (As usual, I expect the Netflix shows to continue ignoring the movies. Sigh.)
Evie Totty | May 4, 2018
Well. I just read a blurb where someone things A-M & W happens before and during Infinity War. They have to tie the movies together somehow.
And yes - I agree they likely will not include the Netflix shows :(
Evie Totty | May 5, 2018
FYI - they announced the attack on Earth on last night's AoS. But some of it seemed ludicrous to me. Adrian Pasdar's character believing he is 'Earth's Mightiest Hero'... When they JUST SAID that The Avengers were fighting Thanos on earth. His character of General Talbot is now pretty frickin' powerful for sure... but still. he doesn't look the part.
Anyway yeah. AoS is in the timeline.
Erik Bates | May 8, 2018
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Scott Hardie | May 9, 2018
Evie Totty | May 9, 2018
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Scott Hardie | April 29, 2018
In possession of all infinity gems, Thanos would have omnipotence, right? Then isn't his problem lack of imagination? He wants to solve overpopulation, but all he can think of to accomplish that is killing half of the universe's population. He can do literally anything else: Make extra planets and redistribute people there. Make planets larger. Make resources renew themselves infinitely. Make populations intuitively adjust their own birth rates until statis is achieved. These are just off the top of my head; there are probably much better ways to go. As compelling as the movie version of Thanos was, due in large part to Josh Brolin's performance, there's still a disappointing simplicity to his plan.
Was it me or was it very obvious when Doctor Strange handed over the green stone that he knew that it would lead to the 1-out-of-14-million scenario?
I really liked some of the specific callbacks to earlier films: Kevin Bacon, "we have a Hulk," the flip-phone that Steve sent Tony, "that really old movie," Quill's dance-off, the surprise guest appearance by a long-dead villain. And I loved that Rocket finally found a good use for the body parts that he keeps stealing via pranks.
I also liked the distinction drawn around sacrificing friends and loved ones. Quill was unwilling to shoot Gamora, Wanda was unwilling to kill Vision (for most of the movie), Gamora was unwilling to let Nebula be tortured to death, and Strange was unwilling to let Tony die, and yet any of them could have prevented the massacre if they had just done it. The only character in the movie willing to sacrifice their loved one was the villain, and that's why he won. That's a very well considered idea in the screenplay.
Their appearance here would have been even less probable than in Civil War's big airport fight scene, but I'm still disappointed that Netflix's Defenders did not show up in an MCU film. We could have had a shot of one of them reacting to another turning to dust, or a scene mid-credits that reveals why they can't help the cause. I continue to hope that they show up in the next film. It just feels pointless to have them be part of the MCU if they never ever interact with it. Groot playing a "Defenders" video game is not sufficient.