Scott Horowitz | August 17, 2005
I don't know what suprises me more. The fact that Lori wrote a goo for a non-Japan related person or that Amy figured it out from that clue

JK Lori :)

Mike Eberhart | August 17, 2005
I was going to start a thread about this goo, but Scott beat me to it. I'll just add to this one. I have a complaint about this goo. First, like Scott said, how could anyone get anything out of that clue. Amy, I know, you got it, but you're a wizard at this game for some reason. I have a problem with the explanation given. First, what's the Crime of this celebrity? Was the crime that he tried to escape over the wall, then the crime was on his part. Or, was the Crime that he was killed? If that is the reason, then it wasn't a crime that he was killed. That was the law of that time, everyone knew that if you tried to escape over the wall you would be shot. So I would say that the crime would be on him for trying to escape. Also, there should have been more than just Crime as a category. There should have been Government & Politics, Military, Controversy & Scandal, & possibly Activism & Society. If there would have been a few more of these categories listed, this would have been a little easier to figure out.

David Mitzman | August 17, 2005
As I've said before, Lori should have a permanent ban on requesting goos :-p

Even obscure goos like Karel Roden that I've requested aren't so insanely difficult that they can't be figured out.

Amy Austin | August 17, 2005
Mike, even though I did get this goo with only that clue, I also had these same thoughts about the category. In fact, it was what slowed me down considerably, since from the beginning I had just eliminated any thoughts I had about the Berlin Wall -- figuring that Government & Politics would have been a definite sub-category there. I even found myself wondering if other categories could be downplayed specifically for the intended difficulty of a goo and decided that no, I didn't think I had ever seen one that didn't include other categories that it should have, unless maybe it was one of several. I thought that any goo that really was pure "Crime" would be *really* obscure and tough to come by and that none of us stood a chance with just that clue to go on! It was only as a result of my other targeted searches that I decided to go ahead and follow that vein of thought *anyway*, since the Berlin Wall did keep coming up -- and I thought that once I had done so, others would surely do the same. It was obvious that it wasn't a Japanese goo, and then we all know what language is Lori's second fave... don't we? ;-) This knowledge only reinforced my inkling that I should pursue that lead, and voila!

(And since Lori is responsible for at least two of my Imeldas that I can think of, *of course* I don't think she should be banned -- perish that thought, Dave!!! ;-D)

Scott Horowitz | August 17, 2005
I still think you found a clever way to hack the site, Amy.

Mike Eberhart | August 17, 2005
I never said that I wanted Lori banned from requesting goos, it would just be nice if she would just request something that isn't classified as "freaking impossible" everytime. At least come up with something that someone may have heard of. Just because this guy was the last guy killed at the Berlin Wall, so what, why's he any different than the hundreds before him? I guess I'm just burned out on trying to find extremely difficult goos like hers. It's almost like as soon as I see that it's a requested goo from Lori, I almost just skip that one altogether. I still look for it for a little bit, but I don't put in nearly the amount of time it would need to figure it out.

And Scott, I think you're on to something.... :)

Scott Horowitz | August 17, 2005
It is the "celebrity goo game" not the "Obscure 8 minutes of fame goo game"

Amy Austin | August 17, 2005
Mike: I was responding to Dave about banning Lori -- he's the one who said that.

Scott (& Mike): I know you're only joking when you say that I've "found a clever way to hack the site", but rest assured... if I were *that* clever and computer savvy, I'd sure as hell be doing something better with my time than sitting here on my unemployed ass playing this game every day!!! ;-)

Both of you: How can you ask what makes the last person killed attempting to cross the Wall special??? What makes the last (or first) of *anything* special... let alone at the end of an example of some of the worst cruelty the Cold War era had to offer! It happened in 1989... the first death happened in 1961 -- nearly 30 years of political manipulation and bullying in what we would call a modern day setting! I know that worse things continue on in so many parts of the world, but this... in a non-third-world country fresh out of one of the worst chapters of world history in which Germany played a pretty unsavory role!!! What if we had "a law" in this country that forbade us from crossing over the Mason-Dixon line... or entering from a "red state" into a "blue state"??? One that promised we would get shot for doing so! Doesn't anyone find that barbaric??? I guess this wasn't really part of Mike's bewilderment, when so many others -- as he mentioned -- were also killed, but I just don't understand how one can doubt the significance (or "celebrity") of it.

To put it more definitively... if you Google the guy's name, how many hits are you going to find on him -- quite simply, his death is like an epilogue to an event of world historical significance. Had I ever heard his name before? No. But I surely wouldn't deny him that place of commemoration. He is certainly as -- or more -- deserving of being defined as a "celebrity" (for the purposes of this game, or otherwise) than some obscure astronaut with the same name as (but more Google hits than) somebody else here... ;-)

I still agree, though, with Mike about the other categories. However, if you want some real "Controversy & Scandal" on this same subject, you should look up the story on Peter Fechter (who perhaps should make an appearance in the next "For Pete's Sake" week ;-D). He was not the first *or* last one killed, but perhaps the most scandalous and noteworthy, with seemingly more fame than either the first or last guys -- I didn't even find the name of the first (but I also didn't dig for it, either). It is truly tragic (and lasted for closer to 50 minutes than 8).

Lori Lancaster | August 17, 2005
[hidden by request]

Scott Horowitz | August 17, 2005
I'm just busting your chops Lori... it's all in good fun. For some reason, I had Timothy McVeigh in my head for this goo, but couldn't get certain enough to make a guess.

Amy Austin | August 17, 2005
I thought of him, too, Scott -- but he's already been done.

Lori: I enjoy your goos -- and I know they aren't all Japanese! ;-D

Dave Stoppenhagen | August 17, 2005
Hell I thought of Bob Geldof who played the roll of Pink

David Mitzman | August 17, 2005
Geez can't people tell I was joking? Ban = a joke. -sigh-

Russ Wilhelm | August 18, 2005
For a while I was looking at "Michael P. Fay", thinking that the wall was a blank canvas. Wasted two days on that track so now I have a good handle on the who's who of the graffiti artists.

I thought the clue was quite clever, in hindsight of course. The explanation could be expanded on (The concert). I actually did look, more like glazed, over the Berlin Wall, but obviously not long enough.

The goos Lori mentions above are before my time, so I too was wary that maybe this goo only looked like he was not Japanese. I think I've only seen about four previous goos from Lori, and besides being listed (truthfully) as "Very Hard" they were all Japanese. Not being the smartest person on the planet (PDHF), I came back to that train of thought at least once a day.

So did it meet legitimate criteria?
Catagory: Crime - It was against the law, even if not ours, to cross over the wall, so he did commit a crime.

Difficulty: Very Hard - No doubt there.

Clue: Again in hindsight, nicely done for the difficulty level.

Correct guesses: 1 - At least 1 but not many meets what I would think of as approprate for the difficulty level. Amy stated that she got there from the clue.

Lori - I don't always agree with your clue's ("Clear eyes" in reference to "Blurry eyes"), and even though my comfort zone is slightly eroded thanks to you, my opinion is that you nailed this one.

I would like to see some lesser difficulty goos from you. The problem with these "very hard" goos is that if we figure out the goo, we could really care less who they are and what they did. On the other hand if it's too easy, we may think we arleady know all we need to, so there's nothing to learn. Some nice mediums ought to do the trick.

And if nothing else, your goos make for great conversations.

Scott Hardie | August 18, 2005
I was wondering if this would spur any conversation. As usual, I thought Lori came up with a worthwhile goo, or I wouldn't have published it. There were several guesses for members of Pink Floyd and one for the entire band Pink Floyd, which is what I expected.

The Crime category covers criminals in addition to victims. This is a Crime goo because Gueffroy's famous for breaking the law by trying to escape over the wall. History has judged that law poorly, but it's still the right category. (Reminds me of Rosa Parks, another Crime goo considered more of a hero than a criminal. I'd have gooed the guy who faced the tank at Tiananmen Square by now if his identity was known.)

I strongly considered cross-listing Gueffroy in the Controversy & Scandal category since I found references to the many trials of the officers who shot him, but I didn't find reference to any social outcry over his unjust death so I gave up. From everything I read, his death didn't really help bring down the Wall, so he's not qualified for Society. I don't know why he would qualify for Government/Politics or Military, since he wasn't involved in either organization. If the law had been written specifically because of him, I might have considered him for Law & Order. :-\ Just so it's clear, the category decision was mine (Lori only provided the clue).

What's PDHF? Or is that an inside reference I'm not supposed to recognize?

Amy Austin | August 18, 2005
Dave (S): But what would be his "Crime"??? (And what about "Music", "Cinema", & "Activism & Society"???)

Dave (M): Yes, I could tell you were joking. Sort of. ;-) (That was a joke, too... in case you couldn't tell. ;-D)

Russ: I was tempted to go down that path, too... but figuring that would qualify for "Art & Photography" kept me from going there -- more distinctly than any thoughts of the other categories mentioned being involved (but only slightly so). I had some beef with that Hyde clue, too. ;-) But I disagree about not caring about the significance of the "very hard" celebs if I figure them out... I'm more likely not to care if I *don't* get them. If I work that hard to solve a goo, then I like knowing why, and the satisfaction of the discovery usually allows me to press on.

Scott: Regardless of categories, I'm glad you chose to publish it -- I didn't know that anyone had been gunned down that close to the end, and the discovery of Fechter also really made me think about world citizenship as well as being American. And it's also provided greater clarification on what constitutes what in your system of categorization.

Lori: Like I said already... "good goo" -- and I'm not just saying it 'cuz I got it, either. ;-)

Dave Stoppenhagen | August 18, 2005
Bad music.

Honestly when I looked at it didn't even pay attention to the category I was getting slammed at work and took a minute to breathe and stopped in to see what was out there

Amy Austin | August 18, 2005
Heh, heh... oh, I don't know, Dave -- the Boomtown Rats aren't so bad... I don't like Mondays, either!

Russ Wilhelm | August 19, 2005
Don't get me wrong. It's not that I don't learn anything form the "Very Hard" goos. But the learning part happens on the way to finding them. Take this goo for example. As I said I'm quite familiar with Graffiti artist. More than that, I know more about Psychotic students and their victims, Prison escapes, memorials, bank construction, etc... than I ever thought I would.

Not being the most experienced or the cleverest gamer here, my strategy for this round is sheer effort. Thus far it's paid off. So, unlike Mike, I'm refusing to let it go. But after a while I find myself looking forward to an end of the agony.

Amy Austin | August 19, 2005
Hahaha! It's cool, Russ -- I can definitely relate to *both* of those feelings... (finding out more than you ever knew -- or wanted to know -- about a subject (and being way off base anyway) and just dying for the damn thing to expire, so as to put you out of your freakin' misery! ;-DDD)

I definitely give you props for sheer effort, though... clearly, it *is* paying off for you! Looks like my only chance at this point is for you to shoot yourself in the foot (like I did for Deep Blue) and/or to get another 2 or 3 more goos of this difficulty level that I manage to solve and you don't! I tell you, though -- I'm pretty damn happy about getting my Imelda on this one... the way you and Jerry are playing this round, I was starting to think that those days might just be over! :-| ;-)

Jerry Mathis | August 23, 2005
Amy, you don't have to worry about me, I'll be out of town from Sept 17 - Oct 1 and probably no where near an internet connection. This one's between you and Russ

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