Experimentation
Amy Austin | June 25, 2007
I'm surprised that you're surprised by this -- and yes, based on my recognition of many events on this timeline, I'd say it is all true.
Kris Weberg | June 25, 2007
Some of it is certainly true -- the various MK programs and Operation: Paperclip are well-documented, as are things like the shameful Tuskegee Experiment. Other items, like the "AIDS is a government plot" material, are more than likely bullshit.
Lori Lancaster | June 25, 2007
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Tony Peters | June 25, 2007
from all accounts the behavior of the USA was a lot better than either the USSR or China though in the grand scheme of things I know we would rather think we are above such behavior entirely. I have never heard a diffinitive answer to the chem weapons exposure during desert storm I have a Navy Buddy who was exposed and while he's still on active duty I know he's restricted to San Diego (for places he can work) because of his health status.
Scott Hardie | June 26, 2007
Ah, how many X Files episodes these events have inspired. Kris has it right, I think.
If it's any dark consolation, I'd like to think that every one of the real incidents on this list was instigated for the greater good; that we merely disagree with the responsible party about whether the ends justified the means. For a convenient contemporary example, look no further than Gitmo: Necessary evil to some, unacceptable evil to others. (Funny how my side is the one that says torture is always wrong and somehow we're the moral relativists.)
Amy Austin | June 26, 2007
Other items, like the "AIDS is a government plot" material, are more than likely bullshit.
Hm, where did you read that, Kris -- I must have missed it. The closest thing I saw to that iteration was:
1978 Experimental Hepatitis B vaccine trials, conducted by the CDC, begin in New York, Los Angeles and San Francisco. Ads for research subjects specifically ask for promiscuous homosexual men.
1981 First cases of AIDS are confirmed in homosexual men in New York, Los Angeles and San Francisco, triggering speculation that AIDS may have been introduced via the Hepatitis B vaccine
I don't see any bullshit there. There is no statement that AIDS is a government plot, only a timeline of substantiable facts that Hep B vaccine trials were conducted, gender-role-biased ads were placed (is that so hard to believe in 1978?), and that the first cases of AIDS triggered speculation... -- what about these statements is bullshit???
Okay, further back on the time-line...
1970 Funding for the synthetic biological agent is obtained under H.R. 15090. The project, under the supervision of the CIA, is carried out by the Special Operations Division at Fort Detrick, the army's top secret biological weapons facility. Speculation is raised that molecular biology techniques are used to produce AIDS-like retroviruses.
Again, only speculation was raised, not indictment -- and since, in 1970, AIDS was completely unknown, the phrase "AIDS-like retroviruses" is likely the simplest description handy to illustrate to the modern reader the level of what the 1970 speculation was all about... although I will agree that there is pobably a better (less conspiratorial) choice of wording that could have been used to make this point.
And just because the greatest likelihood is that the government did *not* create AIDS -- let alone for the specific purpose of targeting homosexuals (let's not pretend, though, that the vast majority of government constituents hasn't historically made their positions on gays, etc. well-known) -- doesn't make them any less culpable for their participation in the engineering of biological weapons and the contributions this has made to bio-warfare. You can be sure that, just as there was/is a world-wide nuclear arms race, there is also a biological weapons race -- whether it be the creation of, procurement of, or just control of, pure & simple -- and just as with nuclear arms, I think it's pretty scary to think about *any* government... even (especially?) our own... seeking to be "the winner" of this race.
Scott Hardie | June 27, 2007
What is this list, after all, but a compilation of secret experiments by the US government? Either AIDS was a government experiment or it doesn't belong on this list. If the mention of AIDS is a genuinely relevant follow-up to an earlier point made about Hepatitis B, then it should be directly connected by facts and research, not "speculation." Widespread speculation doesn't prove anything, and its mention in lieu of evidence just makes the argument seem weaker. People have widely speculated that the government killed JFK and MLK, but that speculation isn't itself proof of their murder.
Amy Austin | June 27, 2007
The page calls itself a "history" -- or timeline, as I stated above -- and I don't see where it offers anything in the way of "proof" or even an "argument" in support of any theories, conspiracy or otherwise... that is all my comment was meant to point out. (Well... that and the naivete of believing that this sort of thing isn't possible).
The JFK and MLK assassinations went down in history without reckoning -- and, as such, the ensuing "widespread speculation" that has always been and will continue to persist through the ages is a salient point that merits mention in conjunction with these events, regardless of the credibility of said speculation... that there was widespread speculation is a historical fact in and of itself that cannot be denied. I see nothing different about the presentation of the information in the link above -- a statement of chronological facts accompanied, where applicable, by noteworthy public sentiment -- and, therefore, no reason to dismiss it as "bullshit".
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Lori Lancaster | June 25, 2007
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