Rock Block Rookie Observations

Steve Dunn | June 19, 2008
OK, so I've been playing Rock Block for a week or two. I have a few thoughts/observations/questions...

1) Great game! I should have started along with everyone else back in the beginning. I was afraid I would get too addicted, but it's nice how the game allows you to play at a leisurely pace.

2) How come theme concerts don't "count?" To me it looks like most of the games being played are "off the books" for some reason. To me this seems to make the RB Userrank much less meaningful. It seems to me that players' records should either count or they shouldn't.

3) I'm slightly more understanding of allowing games without cards being at risk, but come on! Play for keeps!

4) Speaking of which, props to Justin Woods for playing a one-card exchange match with me and bringing Ozzy Osbourne. I won Ozzy from him and only found out later he had an exclusive deal on that card! Unfortunately (for me) Justin immediately won Ozzy back. If I'd known it was an exclusive card I might not have put it back in play. Bottom line, though - mad props to Justin for putting it out there.

5) Is it better to go first or second? I haven't played enough to notice a difference, so I'm curious what the veterans think. In chess it's slightly advantageous to make the first move. Same true in RB? Intuitively I think it would be a big advantage.

6) What's the deal on the Devil? I mean, you play and he just takes your cards. Do you just keep playing until someday you just magically happen to win?

7) I love clicking on the bands and watching their videos. Great feature.

Lori Lancaster | June 20, 2008
[hidden by request]

Tony Peters | June 20, 2008
devil...my best luck against the devil is to attack every card he places...then again he's still smoked me so many times it's nt funny

Steve Dunn | June 20, 2008
2 - hmm, yes, that is a darn good point.

5 - hmmm, OK, I'll try that!

Amy Austin | June 20, 2008
1) We tried to tell you all along, but you weren't listening... ;-)

2) What Lori said. Themes is a very new feature and is just for fun -- it was something that was starting to be done in real concerts just to mix it up, and now... well, it's fun, completely random, and really nice for when you're just feeling too damned lazy to start up a concert in the old-fashioned way and/or risk a card. (Added bonus: You get to play with cards you don't own.) If you'd been playing all along, you'd appreciate this more.

3) If you'd been playing all along, you'd appreciate this more. The Card Exchange has evolved through a few different changes now, and so getting replacement cards wasn't always as readily available. Concerts tend to suck with the same set of ten (or less!) cards to play over and over again. If you got severely burned a few times or just really suck at the game (as I seemed to in the beginning... my win record has only been starting to look reasonable next to the losses and draws since about 50 wins for me -- before that, my win ratio was absurdly low), you tend to get a little gun-shy about risking your cards. Similarly, when you do start getting more cards, it's easy to want to hoard -- especially with bands you really like and after you've attained achievements that will be lost if you lose the cards that helped you to get them. Good for you that these things don't seem to affect your competitive drive... I think it will only add to your enjoyment of the game.

4) Justin *had* to risk Ozzy, or else Ozzy would no longer have been exclusive to him. Luckily for him, you didn't know any better and he was able to win him back. Now he has exclusivity again for another six months. I'd be more impressed if he risked him sometime and/or often in the near future, since he won't have to do so again until December (January?). No offense intended to Justin here, either... I don't have an exclusive, and hell if you'll ever see me risking Elvis! I'd be too pissed to lose him -- it would take an exclusive just to make me risk him.

5) It's been a point of RB discussion on more than one occasion, and I think general consensus tends to agree that there is a distinct advantage to being the challenged vs. the challenger... I can't remember who tends to feel otherwise. BUT... the better a player you are, the less this tends to hold true... AND when you are the challenger, you also have the advantage of setting all the rules and choosing everything to suit your luck/strategy. The time that having the challenged advantage is most obvious is when playing with Global. It's not unbeatable, but it's pretty damned hard to win if you don't have the last move on that rule.

6) Yes.*

7) Totally.

*This was a point of discussion, too... you might find it amusing to search the RB discussions for commentary on the Devil's "strategies" -- I didn't realize that he was straight-up programmed to be a cheat, I just thought he was supposed to be designed to be more skilled/trickier than the Angel... and it pissed me off! ;-D However, I think I've played him maybe around a hundred times, in which I've beaten him for three. Once I achieved Landmines, it was really just about a vendetta that will never be satisfied. I haven't played him in a pretty long time now -- I get enough ass-kickings from everyone else around here, and they at least do it honestly! ;-p

Steve Dunn | June 20, 2008
Hmmm, all very good points. Thanks!

As for the challenger/challenged difference, I think it would be interesting to run the numbers and see if the results show any advantage. Intuitively, to me it seems like if you're making the first move, you're establishing some important limitations on how the rest of the game plays out.

By the way, it's worth noting that because I'm new, I'm limited to playing very simple games. I see some of the stuff you other folks are doing (global, cascade, etc) and I can't even comprehend how that affects strategy and outcomes. I'm glad I don't have to worry about all that. I'm still not able to tell until quite late when a draw is inevitable. I haven't internalized it enough yet to know who's ahead early. I'm learning a little each day, though!

Shawn Brandt | June 20, 2008
Alright, at the behest of Russ from a while back, and with Steve's ringing endorsement, I'm going to give this thing a shot. Hell, tomorrow's my last day at work, so I've got two weeks with nothing to do before I start up school. You're all in big, big trouble.

Lori Lancaster | June 20, 2008
[hidden by request]

Scott Hardie | June 20, 2008
Great comments. Everybody's dead on.

1) I still wonder, Steve: Do you feel addicted? During the brief supernova of activity when the game debuted, someone made a joke about it being addictive like virtual crack, and I think that hurt it in the long run, because it scared away people who would have enjoyed it all this time. Among the original 110 bands were a few that I included (in part) because they were favorites of people I expected to play the game: Phish for Steve Dunn, Heart for Jackie, George Thorogood for Derek, Radiohead for Anna. These bands were worthy inclusions, but the sentiment behind them was lost.

2) Amy pointed out the main reason why themes don't count, that themes are a recent addition to the game and were intended as a sideshow that has partially eclipsed the main event due to their novelty. Does offering no reward for them give you more incentive to play regular concerts? Originally I intended themes to have zero effect on the rest of the game, but later I added two achievements based on them. (Fun fact: Both play rules unlocked by themes were based on suggestions from Russ, modified slightly by me to suit the existing code.)

Themes are still developing as a game feature, and might come to mean more with time. Perhaps I'll start counting them in userrank. Perhaps I'll force all cards in a theme to balance to the same level, though this will make some themes play out identically every time. (Some themes have so few bands associated that there would only be two possible hands, with only 1-2 possible outcomes. Some themes would even be impossible to balance evenly unless I added more cards.) Does anyone want these changes?

3) I feel the same way, that trades are worth risking and make the game fun, but I don't expect everyone to agree. Oddly, I never gamble in real card games, prefering to play for the fun of the game instead, so go figure. I recently altered the Card Exchange only to give high cards to players willing to trade, as a means of resurrecting this critical part of the game that had died off, but nothing says you have to trade. To each their own.

4) Amy said it, though Justin hasn't said whether he was intentionally risking Ozzy or he brought it to the concert absent-mindedly. For purposes of preserving an exclusive deal, a "trade match" is defined as any concert without the play rule Protect and a trade rule other than None or Each.

5) Choosing between challenger and defender reminds me of the old technique for sharing a piece of cake with a friend: I'll cut it in half and you choose which half is yours, or vice versa. Whatever small benefit there is in getting to choose the better piece is offset by the small benefit in getting to make any cut you want. There are advantages to both sides. Statistically, defenders have won a few more concerts than challengers, a difference I consider negligible. (Fun fact: There have been very few concerts won by forfeit, under a hundred, but the vast majority were won by challenger.)

Would it make the game better if I randomly selected either the challenger or defender to get the first turn, 50/50 chance? Alternatively, I could create a play rule to that effect, giving the challenger the first play.

6) Devil cheats, but he does have a pattern. You can either figure out the pattern or get lucky. More people beat him than I expected. I could have made him even harder, but I wanted to launch the feature that Sunday night (had no time in coming weeks) and I thought he was hard enough. I no longer think so.

7) I like the videos too. Please feel free to submit your own favorite songs as additional videos. Someday I'd like to build an "RBTV" page that presents a gallery of videos, but it's a low priority. Videos are great for discovering bands you didn't know you would like: Last weekend, I added Hot Chip to the game for the block party without ever hearing of them before, and now I'm hooked; their song is catchy, which is good since it's a celebration of catchy pop songs. (link)

About being new: The game is a little tedious at first, since you only get to play the same ten cards and draws are frequent. Themes (available once you finish a complete concert) help to break up the monotony a little, but the game doesn't really get varied until you unlock some achievements. The play rules available after you win ten concerts, swap ten cards, and have one card from each decade are especially good at providing variety early in the game.

Shawn, I'm excited to have you! You'll make a great player, judging from your skill and determination in the goo game. Welcome.

About counting cards: For whatever it's worth, the Collection Guide used to be a list of cards of all ranks on one page, listing only the name of the card and the players who owned it. It was much harder to count cards or remember what cards had what sides; you had to review your opponent's earlier concerts if you really wanted to know all that. Now it's broken down by rank and shows the cards that you've seen in concert, because I don't think it damages the game to see that.

Steve Dunn | June 20, 2008
No, I'm not worried about addiction. Being able to check in only once per day, or even less frequently, solves that issue for me.

Phish is in this game!? Dang, I need to get on that!

I see no way Justin "absent mindedly" put Ozzy at risk in our game. I think he thought it would be an easy win or draw, but he found out the hard way! I'm glad it worked out the way it did, though. He got his rematch and he won back his card. Fair and square.

It's really fun to develop little relationships with the cards. I like my Oasis card a lot better than I ever liked the band. I choose to play certain cards in situations where it's irrelevant just because I have a fondness for them. I suspect this will only get stronger over time.

Counting cards? Yikes, you people are hard core. I love it. I accidentally screwed Steve West early on with an Undo move and later learned that using Undo to screw people is an actual strategy. Hard. Core.

Scott Hardie | June 20, 2008
Heh, you'll find a few other underhanded strategies like that. I stopped playing a certain opponent after becoming a victim of one, but I mind that incident less as time passes.

I strongly dislike Frank Zappa's music, but I can't bring myself to give up his card, even as I try to shape a collection based on my favorites. It was a great R4 at the beginning of the game and helped me dominate some early matches. You don't easily let go of a card after it helps you win like that.

Steve Dunn | June 20, 2008
Scott, thanks for tweaking the code so when Steve West and I play each other, it shows our last names in telling us whose turn it is. Nice touch.

Justin Woods | June 20, 2008
Ok I will speak up to the concert with Steve Dunn; Yes I was intentionally risking Ozzy which was due to expire on the 18th of June, but I had no idea I would lose that match. All I can say for Steve is sorry he found out about the exclusive part after the re-match was over, and also thanks for keeping it mine, and it was a great game he won against me... I will make a deal with you Steve, since you did not know about the exclusive part you will be the first one to have dibs on it.

Scott Hardie | June 20, 2008
One of Eric's exclusives has just expired, and the other is about to. I will probably eventually add to Dashboard a reminder when one of your deals is about to run out, but it wouldn't have helped Eric, who hasn't been back to the site in a while.

Amy Austin | June 20, 2008
Yessssss... I've been waitng for U2 to expire!

Shawn Brandt | June 20, 2008
Black Circle Records is open for business. Bonus points for anybody who can figure out why I went with Black Circle.

Jim Kraus | June 20, 2008
Spin the ____ _______

Steve Dunn | June 20, 2008
Justin, I think the whole thing worked out perfectly. I really think it's great. You got your card back fair and square, and I got to participate in a little piece of RB history without even knowing it. I trust my name is duly recorded as a one-time owner of that card??

Shawn Brandt | July 18, 2008
Another suggestion, which may or may not have been mentioned before:

Scott, would it be possible to give players the option to get an email notice when their turn is up in a concert? It would help them move along much more quickly. I've forfeited the last two concerts to Dunn, which as you can imagine is nearly unbearable. It would have to be an opt-in/out situation so that people didn't get half a dozen emails from a quick game, but it might help the games/players with longer time limits.

Amy Austin | July 18, 2008
I've been noticing the number of forfeits lately... rough.

Also, on a tangentially related topic... I had an idea about the Happy Birthday theme. Of course, it could just be a programming nightmare, but maybe not? How about if a performer appears in concert if it's played on the performer's birthday? (This is inspired by hearing that Martha -- of Martha and the Vandellas -- turns 67 today.)
And... for added fun: this card is Invincible on that day!

Happy Birthday, Martha...

Amy Austin | July 18, 2008
Upon further reflection, I realize that part of the Invincibility charm is the suspense... this would be eradicated by my suggestion -- *unless*...

Invincibility is a random event in the theme -- generated specifically by birthdays, of course -- and instead of the card that is played to the Invincible spot, the birthday performer makes his/her Invincible appearance there instead! Total randomness and drama with this surprise factor... I think it'd be fun! (To play, but probably not to program... ;-p ;-[) )

Aaron Shurtleff | July 18, 2008
That could be rough, what with your average band having four people, any one of whom could have a birthday on a particular day. Elvis, for example, could be invincible one day a year, but a band like, oh, KC and the Sunshine Band (the first band I could think of that I know has a ton of members) could have up to 15 invincible days a year, depending on who you consider part of the band. Not that I wouldn't love to see KC popping up all the time! ;)

Would Van Halen get invincibility on Sammy Hagar's birthday, or just David Lee Roth (since he's on the card)? And what about Gary Cherone?! :)

For that matter, what about an artist like Eric Clapton, who has been part of several different bands? Would there be a bunch of invincible cards on his birthday??

I like the second idea, though. That would be cool! The programming (not to mention compiling the birthdays of all the band members (current and former??), and deciding who is important enough to rate making the band invincible) would probably be a nightmare though, I would imagine.

Tony Peters | July 18, 2008
I was thinking Pfunk which I know is a card here and has had More members than many orchestras

Scott Hardie | July 25, 2008
Shawn, I didn't mean to ignore your suggestion. It's legit, and it has been brought up before, and the answer is complicated.

This site was celebritygoogame.com from 2000 to 2006. That domain became blacklisted as a source of spam. It originally happened because of a malicious eBay user who wanted to punish me for a transaction that went sour (and wasn't my fault, but that's ancient history), and so she submitted my email address to a bunch of blacklists. But it didn't help that players could opt-in for generated email notices from that server, such as reminders to play the goo game for players who had fallen behind, and announcements about events in the various games on the site. It's very easy in this day and age to trip a spam filter (Yahoo Mail may as well send every single message you get into the spam folder), and if you trip one too well or too often, you're on the list. It got to the point where I couldn't email my own friends from celebritygoogame.com, because my messages would never go anywhere. It's one of the main reasons I changed to this domain.

So, as you can imagine, I'm not eager to repeat that. This site currently has a handful of events that can trigger an email to me, but that's it. You cannot send an email to any user on this site, nor is the site programmed to email any user anything. It doesn't help that the SMTP on my current webhost doesn't work very well, and many messages simply never go out. I wish the spambots would stop trying to sign up for accounts (it's getting to be several daily now, not that any of them crack my fairly simple Turing test), but I'm happy with the 100% unblacklistable site that I have... except that my site suffers for not having email, because players grow unhappy and leave, or just plain forget. I don't want you folks unhappy, because then there's no point to all this.

I finally gave in during the last GOO tournament, when many players simply forgot to come back to play it, or realized a day late that it had started. It's clear that the site needs a reminder system for the players who want reminders. RSS, even when I integrate it with the Dashboard, isn't enough.

For the last few weeks, I've been researching email services. I need a service that will let my php script connect to its server at arbitrary intervals and activate a mailing to be sent from their server using their return address, so that I cannot be blacklisted. Most services that I've found either require me to manually schedule/activate the mailings (no API in other words), or they're way out of my price league and won't speak to me. I'm hopeful on a current proposal that I've requested. If all else fails, I guess I can set up a separate webhost account somewhere and register an alternate domain myself, like gootcannouncements.com or something, and rig up this system myself. We'll see. I'd appreciate other suggestions about this if anyone has any.

Shawn Brandt | July 25, 2008
Sounds good, Scott. Please know that it isn't nearly important enough to me to get reminders that you should go to any expense for my sake.