D+D = Psychologist?

Lori Lancaster | March 14, 2005
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John E Gunter | March 14, 2005
Heard about this on a gaming website forum, kind of interesting dialog going on over there about that news story.

I don't agree with their points, as whether a soldier plays the game or not shouldn't have any barring as to whether he'll be any good at maintaining a security clearance or not.

But as you say Lori, we don't like Gays in our military.

By the way, friend of mine from high school played with us for a while. His first outing in the game didn't turn out to well. Not wanting to turn this into a novella, he slaughtered some villagers when we stormed a village. We were given incorrect information as to the village.

We were told the villain who had been terrorizing the region was there and the village was his main base of operations. Anyway, the player didn't realize we were duped and took a few actions to realize he was killing the wrong people.

Well, after high school, he joined the military and went on to work as one of the crews in our European nuclear deterrent force. The guy basically had his finger on the button over in Europe. When we heard this, we joked about him being put in charge of a nuclear weapon, but now, 20 some years later, he's out of the military and obviously we survived without him starting WWIII.

So I know I don't agree with the Israeli army’s ideas on the subject. Course, I don't agree with our military's ideas about Gays either, but that's a different subject. :-D

John

Lori Lancaster | March 14, 2005
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Jackie Mason | March 14, 2005
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Aaron Shurtleff | March 15, 2005
I agree with the contention that some people who participate in RPGs can lose their grip on reality. I, too, have known these people (I don't think you don't know this guy, Scott!), and I've heard the news articles (although some of the veracity of these news stories has been questioned, but that's another point...). I don't think that a link can be shown, though. I think some of the people probably would have gotten detached from reality on their own. The guy I know, he was never the most well connected to reality guy in the first place (that sounds awkward, but I think you get my point), and I think he probably would have lost it anyways.

With that said, I can see where people who have reality issues (which is a polite term) might be drawn towards RPGs. It gives them another option, in a way, to reality. I could see where you could possibly justify saying that you wanted to double check gamers, just because "reality issues" are more likely in that sub-section of the population. But to automatically say that all gamers have a tenuous link with reality is absurd.

As far as the military psychiatric tests, that's useless. My friend (the one from above, incidentally) went to join, and his recruiter (a fine staff sergeant) told him that if he wanted to get in the military, he had to lie his ass off to the military psychiatrists. A psych test isn't going to do a lot of good if the recruiter tells you to lie.

Funny side story, my friend got part way through basic training before an "incident" occurred (mental breakdown). He was to be discharged for mental issues...but they kept him there anyway for two more weeks of basic training...with his drill instructor calling him a pussy, making him do extra work (he didn't give me the details....I kind of had to respect his privacy) and the rest of the guys in basic training being encouraged to similarly insult him. He was used as an example and humiliated for two weeks before they finally discharged him. Huh...guess that story wasn't so funny after all.

Anna Gregoline | March 15, 2005
I always wonder why the military has to be so cruel like that. Argh!

I think that it's kind of ironic that they're taking a hard look at RPGers who play Dungeons and Dragons - but I'm sure they accept many, many people who are obsessed with playing realistic military battle games - the army even has their own! Even though it's based on reality, is it any less escapist?

Kris Weberg | March 15, 2005
Erving Goffman's book Asylums goes a long way in explaining why the military -- and other "total institutions" where your workplace, eating space, and sleep space are collapsed together -- pretty much HAVE to function that way.

I'd post some of it here, but it's a long book written in academese.

Anna Gregoline | March 15, 2005
That's ok - I don't speak academese.

Scott Hardie | March 27, 2005
I'm slightly depressed to read this news story, but I'm going to suck it up and say that the military is doing things right: They're addressing a high correlation instead of ignoring it, and they're treating it as a correlation instead of as a causation. When they find out a recruit plays RPGs, they're not denying him service, they're sending him to a psychologist who evaluates whether or not he is fit for service; as pointed out, more than half the RPG-players sent for review turn out to be unfit for service after all. This is a response to a bona-fide red flag (as proven by results) and not an overreaction to a stereotype. Still, it disappoints me that RPG players in general are believed to have a tenuous link to reality. Most of us do not think that our adventures are real or that we are our characters. That's what I wish people would comprehend.

E. M. | April 9, 2005
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Amy Austin | April 9, 2005
You still didn't get them all. Oh well... Maybe one of these days I won't care anymore.

Scott Hardie | April 9, 2005
Very well put, Ed. I agree about TV news: I read the news online (not as much lately as I'd like) and I did happen to read about the Medal of Honor recepient. It seems to me that two things are happening in conjunction to ruin TV news: Cable channels run it 24 hours a day and so they are desperate for material, and the competition is so fierce among both the networks and the cable channels that they wind up copying each other constantly. So on a slow news day, you get something like the Michael Jackson trial filling not just one TV news outlet, but all of them. Even when real news happens, like the Pope's death, there's nonstop coverage for days on all channels. It's overkill. (Newspapers have been highly critical of TV coverage of the Pope's death and funeral, and they're right.)

Kris Weberg | April 9, 2005
You're forgetting the third bias, Scott -- the laziness of reporters in general. Thanks to book deals and to the exorbitant sums anchors were paid beginning in the late 1970s, when Barbara Walters received an unprecedented sum from CBS during a ratings war, more money goes to a kind of "star system" in both print and TV news, with the twin results that fewer investigative journalists actually work for major media outlets, and where they do, rarely have the kind of institutional support they'd need; and a great many of the people who've replaced investigative journalists have neither the background nor the inclination to do much more than sensationalize and report verbatim press releases.

Anna Gregoline | April 10, 2005
I stand by what I said - it's ironic for the Army to look harder at people playing pretend games because they encourage new recruits to play pretend games. The irony is inescapable to me.

E. M. | April 10, 2005
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Anna Gregoline | April 10, 2005
Hey, I never said it was bad that they use the game - I don't even know anything about it. I'm just saying that it's ironic for them to make that statement about role playing games when they themselves promote a role-playing game.

I'm not sure why you're trying to explain to me about how the current military is run - what I said had nothing to do with how the military is run.

Patrick Little | April 10, 2005
Anna,

The US army is the one promoting the game and I'm not sure I would call it a roleplaying game.

The Isreali Army is the one with the supposed stance on Role Playing Games. They do not recruit for their army so I do not believe they have a "game" they are supporting.

The following statement from the article has a lot more to do with the clearance then the Role Playing Games:

"Game enthusiasts are aware of their problematic image in the army and prefer to maintain their anonymity. Many of them are from the former Soviet Union, where the game is very popular."

Anna Gregoline | April 11, 2005
Ah, you are quite correct. One must re-read the article before plunging back into debate!

I hereby render all previous statements obsolete. These are not the droids you're looking for. Carry on.

=)

E. M. | April 11, 2005
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Amy Austin | April 11, 2005
WOW, can you teach *me* how to use Jedi mind tricks on my husband, Anna?!!! ;DDDDD

E. M. | April 11, 2005
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John E Gunter | April 11, 2005
Watch as the fight between Amy and E unfolds for us, here on TC. Who will prove that they have the strongest mind? Tune in next time same chat channel, same chat time. ;-)

By the way E and Amy, I appreciate that both of you have spent time in the military protecting my freedoms. Would have been there myself, but my recruiter was more interested in himself rather than giving me what I wanted when I looked at the Army. That and I were accepted at the college I wanted to attend. :-D

You're right though about the media focusing on bad events. For some reason, they have the idea that all everyone wants to see is the bad, and not the good.

I guess to some extent, at least for the general public, they are right. Why else do you think most people slow down for accidents! They want to get a glimpse of the wreck and a mangled/dead body or two. Me, I'd rather avoid that kind of thing, but that's just personal preference and I've seen enough nasty injuries first hand to know I don't really want to see more.

John

Amy Austin | April 12, 2005
Hmm... let's see. Well, now that I'm home -- and with a strong internet connection -- I will momentarily consider your ridiculous statement. **thoughtful pause** Yep... it's ridiculous.

So, oh, and how are you doing on those last three goos? Wait a minute... I think I have an e-mail in my box from you, dated 10 April! Yep, I sure do:

I cant find this stupid goo!!! fucking women's right!!!!

Not sure what that means, what with my silly rabbit mind and all, but it sounds a little bit frustrated...

Aaron Shurtleff | April 12, 2005
I'll second what John said. I fully and totally love what the military does for me, and I respect most military folks completely. If it wasn't for the heart murmur that keeps me out of most strenuous activities...well, OK I'd probably run to Canada if the shit hit the fan, because I'm a pussy.

(DISCLAIMER: Aaron's use of the term pussy should not be construed as an insult towards women. It refers only to Aaron's own physical and mental weakness. If the derivation of pussy as an insult comes from an implication that women are weak, Aaron does not intend any insult. Would wussy be better?? I'm one of those too!)

BUT, in the case of someone who was told to lie about their mental "issues", it is not in any of the Armed Forces collective best interests to get such a person to join up, not knowing if that person will "flake out" at a really really bad moment.

I know that most people are great, but I've met a few of the worst.

E. M. | April 13, 2005
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Amy Austin | April 13, 2005
Look out, sweetheart -- tomorrow's goo is "literature"... that means it would probably be a good start to know how to read and write.

Patrick Little | April 13, 2005
Hey, neutral corners you two...
This thread is D+D = Psychologist? not verbal WWF....

E. M. | April 13, 2005
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