Assignment Hollywood

Jackie Mason | December 17, 2006
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Tony Peters | December 17, 2006
My contributions
Humphrey Bogart=====Clive Owen has the same kind of rough and tumble good looks and presence
Audrey Hepburn======Natalie Portman has a similar elfin presence. She also does glamour/class and sexy/sultry with equal ability

Amy Austin | December 18, 2006
Damn, you beat me to the Hepburn/Portman comparison, Tony. Course, her current haircut does a lot to encourage it, but you're right about the rest, too.

That was the most immediate response -- I will have to think on it some more. I do wonder, though, if Marilyn Monroe was thought to be as much the bimbo as Jessica Simpson today. Don't get me wrong -- Marilyn did some great work in her time, and Jessica... well, she does have a singing voice, I will give her that. And she's somewhat likeable, in a bimbo kind of way (though I am liking her far less and less each time I have to see her little Daisy Duke/DirecTV plug -- GOD, that annoys the shit out of me! Hard to imagine how she can possibly come across any more vacuously.) Is this how people received Marilyn in her time, or was she always the glamour/sex symbol-legend that she is now??? I think this is an inherently difficult "assignment" just because I think that the people you mention are "legends" only in part because of their roles. Cinema, and by extension, "stardom" was a fairly new concept at the time, and so it's only natural that the rest of the world, from that generation on, remains star-struck by even the legacy of these figures and that their images and roles continue to be venerated as though they were silver-screen originals -- because they were! As with anything, the first of its kind usually garners the greatest respect. Today, "celebrities" (thankfully, for the ensured continuance of our beloved little game!) are a dime a dozen, and Hollywood is far more "touchable" than ever before with the Paparazzi Invasion that keeps us tuned into each and every event... like Paris Hilton's latest session of tonsil hockey -- which has a distinct tendency to water down anything but the most seasoned and prolific actor's Legend capacity.

That said... Tom Hanks is easily the modern-day Jimmy Stewart.

Amy Austin | December 18, 2006
That was weird...

Erik Bates | December 18, 2006
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Erik Bates | December 18, 2006
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Jackie Mason | December 18, 2006
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Jackie Mason | December 18, 2006
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Amy Austin | December 19, 2006
Oh, and if we want to go with rat packers:

Dean Martin = Harry Connick, Jr.

Damn! Got beaten to another one... I was going to add that one myself!!!

Tony Peters | December 19, 2006
not so sure about Jessica Simpson as MM...Marilyn was sensual/sexual to men of all ages and didn't really meet the norms of the day (or today) for what beauty was (remember she was a size 16 for most of her career). MM was a bimbo more for her adictions and because of the way men in power abused her and less for what she accomplished on her own. I would agree that Pam is a closer comparison for MM but still not quite.

I thought of Kevin Spacey as more of a William Holden but I could see him as Bogart...I was wrong about Clive Owen though he is definatly more of a Gregory Peck than a Bogey

Jackie Mason | December 19, 2006
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Denise Sawicki | December 19, 2006
Regarding the often quoted "Marilyn Monroe wore a size 16" thing, dress sizes have gotten smaller over the years (which is irritating, I still wish women's clothes would be measured in inches to make it less confusing) so what was a size 16 then is probably a 12 or less now. link link Sizing also depends hugely on what store you shop at. Right now I've got on hand me down jeans of my mom's which are size 12 and quite tight, (people think I must be "skinny" because I'm 6'1" and 140 pounds but that's not really the case for some reason...) but I also have a pair of size 6 ones, purchased fairly recently, that fit similarly or looser... Basically women's sizes mean virtually nothing. I do have a tendency to change the topic don't I. Sorry, carry on.

Erik Bates | December 19, 2006
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Jackie Mason | December 20, 2006
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Amy Austin | December 20, 2006
Thank you and "amen", Denise and Jackie!

snopes (Shame on Liz Hurley!!!)

note measurements (Well under 26 inches, Jackie!)

note "stats" (The real definition of "slim": likelihood that a woman of that height with that shoe size and wears a modern 16 has a figure that even remotely resembles Marilyn's.)

Discussion that begs the real question about women and sizes in Hollywood: "Why the hell are these numbers so important anyway?!?!"

Jackie Mason | December 21, 2006
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Erik Bates | December 21, 2006
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Erik Bates | December 21, 2006
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Tony Peters | December 21, 2006
Hey I never said that what counts for the modern definition of beauty is attractive my point was that MM doesn't really fit todays definition. Today's Hollywood is all skin and bones possessing none of the sumptuous curves of yesteryear.

How about Jamie Foxx = Sammy Davis Junior

Denise Sawicki | December 21, 2006
Her waist appears to fit size 0 according to modern definitions (ie, tiny) but her bust was maybe a modern size 10 according to a JC Penney sizing chart. True enough todays supermodels are sometimes very thin and without a lot of curves... Having spent high school much closer to "beanpole" shape than I am now, however, I am quite aware that is not what the majority of guys ACTUALLY consider attractive :) I heard once that models are that shape because a lot of fashion designers are gay men? I've no idea if this is a good explanation or not or if it will be considered a blatantly offensive thing to bring up. I never hear of anyone actually liking skinny, flat-chested women, which made me feel pretty bad about myself in high school, naturally. :P

Sorry Jackie for not contributing to the actual point of your topic; unfortunately I know very little about movie stars of any generation...

Amy Austin | December 21, 2006
Tony, I know what your point was, and I didn't mean to seem contradictory -- yes, MM was curvier than today's average "sex symbol"... but she wasn't a "fattie", either... not even by today's standards. More like a cross between Dolly Parton and J-Lo. ;-)

Rail-thin supermodels has nothing to do with gay designers (who are quite capable of appreciating curves) and everything to do with the drape of fabric. Haute couture just looks better on the "hanger with a head" body than on a real woman, period, whether she's "fat" or not. Take the fact that the "average" woman is really a size 10/12, add to that the fact that "plus size" is usually size 16/18 and over -- but the fashion industry typically uses size 8 (!!!) women to market that demo, and "plus size" in the world of modeling means anywhere from a size 6 to a 16!!! -- and you can see that it's really all just a matter of what looks best in print/TV (the camera adds 15 pounds, they say... and it's true!) and on the runway. No curves means a shadow/sag/ruffle/rumple-free silhouette that makes for the best lines when modeling fashion. Take a look at what happened to Alison Kelly on Project Runway Season 3 ("Waste Not, Want Not"):

USAToday synopsis:

The designers ravage a recycling plant for their materials, and they have one day to make their design. Michael Knight racks up his second win while the judges auf Alison Kelly for her sculpted manila paper dress, saying it makes her model look like "a fat Minnie Mouse."

In yesterday’s post, Tim says Alison’s elimination last night “was a tragic outcome.” He writes that “her design was an origami and sculptural masterpiece in my opinion. Foolish me, I thought she could win. Neither of us anticipated that the asymmetry of the design would bug the judges.” He adds that, while “she and I both anticipated that the bulkiness of the pleated corset would add more girth to her already-plus-size model,” ultimately, “That was her death knell. … It’s a matter of taste.”

Scott Hardie | December 27, 2006
Marilyn Monroe = Angelina Jolie. Both are sex symbols of an impossible, superhuman nature. Both are able to appear nude without ever seeming like sluts. Both traded up from B-list men to A-list men as lovers. As for other stars who could be Marilyn, Anna Nicole Smith is too X-rated and scandalous given her background in pornography, and Jessica Simpson is too "dumb" and self-deprecating. (I say dumb in quotation marks because I think Simpson is actually very intelligent and her moments of stupidity are a calculated act, but I won't argue about it because one Simpson is enough for me to fight the world about.)

My picks:

Cary Grant = George Clooney.

Grace Kelly = Cameron Diaz.

Marlon Brando = Russell Crowe.

Gene Kelly = Jet Li.

Rita Hayworth = Salma Hayek.

Little Drew Barrymore = Dakota Fanning.

Tony Peters | December 27, 2006
I like Angelina Jolie (a lot) but I'm not sure the MM comparison is right, AJ is better actress and able to do rolls that MM could never do. I also think that for all her sexyness AJ doesn't really have the body that MM does. I mean AJ has no a$$ and only a portion of the chest that MM had. MM was a more complete package of femininity.

Jackie Mason | December 30, 2006
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Amy Austin | December 30, 2006
I think she has a gorgeous face, no question, but I agree with Tony about her assets (or lack of them). And, she's still skinny and looks good nearly naked, plus she likes to "buff up" for a role (Lara Croft -- to the extent that a skinny woman can get "buff", that is) and do her own stunts (clearly an adventuresome, thrill-seeker). And have you not seen Gia, the movie about the drug-addicted lesbiana supermodel of the 80s? Or Original Sin, where she gets a pretty good freak on with Antonio Banderas???

Yeah. All that, and her crazy blood-vial wearing marriage to the equally freaky Billy Bob (who I really dislike you referring to as "B" list, Scott!) -- add it up, and you get pretty much every guy's fantasy woman... the kind you just *know* is as hot in bed as she is to look at. (And yes, having DSLs never hurt a woman's appeal to the opposite sex, either!)

Scott Hardie | December 30, 2006
Monroe represented the peak of mainstream feminine sexuality in the 1950s. Jolie does it today. I wasn't thinking in terms of their physical attributes.

Jackie, Amy answered it pretty well. I do wonder what happened to Jolie's aspirations as a serious actress – like Wesley Snipes, she seems to have given that up years ago in favor of easy genre roles with easy fat paychecks. (I say this not knowing the substance of her role in The Good Shepherd.)

Amy, do you dislike me putting down Thornton's star power or Thornton's sexiness? I would say that both are considerable but neither are on the level of Brad Pitt in the mainstream consciousness. (Actually, I recall one female friend expressing disgust at the suggestion that Thornton is sexy, but to each their own.) Short of applying Ulmer's full formula, I've heard the rule of thumb is that an A-list star can make a traditional Hollywood film successful just by starring in it, and that isn't Thornton.

Amy Austin | December 31, 2006
Scott, what you say is true... but I guess I really just dislike it because I think he had the potential to be that powerful and either doesn't really care or squandered it away. He is quite obviously a talented actor, but his resume is just too scattered with mediocre supporting roles and, hello... Bad Santa??? God, I don't even know if Brad Pitt could have survived *that* bad piece of shit!!!

As far as his sexiness... I find him attractive in much the same way that we were discussing Benicio del Toro's appeal -- maybe he isn't "conventionally handsome" to some... but I'm sure that many find appeal in his quirkiness and the bad-boy freakiness that he exhibited with Jolie (okay, maybe that makes him skeevy to some) -- but, in short, I think it's fair to say that he's a bit underrated.

Tony Peters | December 31, 2006
So what you are saying Amy is that you like freaks...Mind you I find no fault in that

Back on Subject....Grace Kelly=Chalize Theron

Amy Austin | December 31, 2006
Well... yeah... who doesn't?

Adrianne Rodgers | December 31, 2006
"The most fun I ever had with Bette Davis was when I pushed her down the stairs in Whatever Happened to Baby Jane."
-Joan Crawford

Using only this criteria, many, many women in Hollywood today can be the new Bette Davis *cough* Courtneylovejenniferlopezhiltonsisterslindsaylohan *cough*

Steve West | December 31, 2006
Although I agree with the sentiment of your post, I believe it was Davis who pushed Crawford down the steps which makes the rest of your post make sense.

Michael Paul Cote | January 4, 2007
Marilyn Monroe Kate Beckinsale

Bette Davis Maggie Gyllenhall

Humphrey Bogart Kevin Spacey

John Wayne Jason Statham

William Holden Harrison Ford

Gregory Peck John Cusack

Cary Grant Hugh Jackman

Jimmy Stewart Tom Hanks

Ingrid Bergman Catherine Zeta Jones

Grace Kelly Charlize Theron

Gene Kelly Richard Gere

Katherine Hepburn Julia Roberts

Lucille Ball Cameron Diaz

Audrey Hepburn Natalie Portman

Rat Packers like ...
Sammy Davis Jr. and Dean Martin The "Ben Affleck/Matt Damon" Group

Erik Bates | January 4, 2007
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Tony Peters | January 7, 2007
the virgin "Angelina kinda throws a wrench into the mix