RB: Card Conversion

Scott Hardie | October 12, 2008
This may turn out to be a very bad addition to the game, or a very popular one. At the bottom of your label, you can now convert old cards into new ones, at a steep price. I needed some way to level the playing field between longtime players with vast collections and newbies with only a handful of cards, and this was the only reasonable way I could think of. Feedback is appreciated.

Steve Dunn | October 13, 2008
Price is too steep.

What is the purpose of this?

Amy Austin | October 13, 2008
He already said... "to level the playing field" -- but I agree that I'm not too likely to use it at such a cost. Two cards for half the rank, maybe (e.g., burning an R5 + an R3 for a new R4) -- kind of like losing your turn in Scrabble in order to draw new tiles -- but at 10x the rank? Yeah... wow.

Steve West | October 13, 2008
I might go as high as 4 or 5x but 10x is too much for me.

Scott Hardie | October 14, 2008
The purpose is to thin out the really large collections. Steve West and Russ have just over 100 cards. Before I started, I had just over 100. I don't know how Justin keeps track of his 169 cards. You can't play with all of those cards, and you can't be a fan of every last one of those bands, and you can't swap them away, so they just kind of sit there clogging up the list forever. Besides, having a huge collection gives a big advantage over beginning opponents who don't have as many cards.

I've been considering this for six months or so, but I couldn't find a compelling reason for players to give up some of their cards. Forcing them to do it didn't seem right. For a while I considered some kind of "gold record" trophy that you could earn by trading in 100 cards, and players would do it once if it meant unlocking an achievement, but how would I get them to keep doing it over time, to prevent collections from growing out of control? This seemed like the best way to thin the pack and give players something worthy for their sacrifice.

Steve West | October 14, 2008
It's true. I have a lot of cards. More than enough. A quick calculation shows that I need to trade in 25 of those cards(including several 6's, an 8 and a 9) to get the R10 that I really want. Granted, 80 cards is still enough but it all comes to naught if that card is selected as an exclusive at some point and I have to start all over again at the loss of those 25 cards. Dilemmas, dilemmas...

Just for the record, I like the concept of trading cards in. And some webmaster, who shall remain nameless, insisted that to remain eligible for new high cards in the card exchange I had to play trade concerts, of which I've won quite a few. Other than losing or getting a draw on purpose I can't seem to avoid gathering more cards. I'm willing to lose cards in trade concerts but I can't help trying to win all concerts especially with something to lose. Sorry to those folks I've taken cards from although everyone seems to have good humor behind it all but you really can't blame a guy for accumulating cards. Drop it to 4x or 5x and I'll be first in line for trade-in. Probably more than one.

Amy Austin | October 14, 2008
Yeah, when you put it like that, it definitely doesn't seem attractive -- I'd be hella' upset if I converted 25 cards to get Elvis and then got punked out of him by an exclusive! Thank goodness I already have Elvis... and I'd only have to stick some pins in a voodoo doll if he went exclusive. ;-)

I actually like the gold record idea. What's even better about that is that you could implement all the levels that way... set a rank or number of cards for each one -- you've got silver, gold, platinum, diamond... heck, you've even got "double" and "multi" platinum! That's at least half a dozen more achievements... could be as many as ten, even. I think this would be far cooler myself, in terms of being worth giving up cards for. True, it's only a status thing, but isn't having a rank in RB and Goo the same thing? And besides... earning the record certifications makes the game of having a label and contracts and such feel more authentic, too -- I've been hoping for something that would implement this particular aspect in some way. Sure, some fine tuning may be in order, but I think it's a great idea.

Scott Hardie | October 14, 2008
Sorry, Steve. I didn't mean to imply that you're doing something wrong by building up a large collection. That's one of the supposed objectives of the game after all. :-) For the players who find their large collections unwieldy, here's a tool to reduce it. For those who want to take it as far as it can go, by all means continue.

Sounds like there's a lot of support for 5x instead of 10x. I'll consider it. I have a record of every trade-in so far, so I adjust as needed.

I will consider the records concept further, Amy. Trophies are something that feel lacking from the game.

Tony Peters | October 14, 2008
10x is too rich for me but I would also consider 5x

Justin Woods | October 14, 2008
So I have been following this new idea for RB, but I am still trying to wrap my head around it I don't see all the pro's around it, to me this is not helping anybody I would have to somewhat see a benefit before I could do that , maybe like an exclusive deal if you were to do something like that at 10x and maybe a achivement unlocked at 5x... also something I have mentioned before is the possibility of a card swap meet, to help others... This would allow the players with high cards taking up space to swap like an R9 for two cards as long as it is equal R9 example R9 = R5+R4...

Russ Wilhelm | October 15, 2008
Now that I find myself with some free time, here's my two cents.

10x may seem high, but I think it's right. I don't think anything less would even the field. I can see myself using it at some point, more than likely for low level cards. R10 may be a little out of my league for this type of trade in, but my sights aren't adjusted there.

I do agree that there is almost no benefit for the player who makes this trade. Those who have a plethora of cards are more likely to want cards from the uppermost ranks (power) as we are more likely to have the mid to lower ranks in abundance (variety). The top is where it gets steep. Perhaps as a carrot, for every x number of cards traded (maybe 5), a random card is received. It may not be much of an incentive, but at least it's something.

On the subject of exclusivity, I'm of the opinion that cards selected to be exclusive should come from the concert in which the "Rock Block" was achieved. Have any of the concerts in which an R10, or an R9 for that matter, contained cards of those levels? I'm not sure, but I don't believe so. Is it harder to achieve a Rock Block at the upper levels? This may alleviate somewhat, the fear of those cards becoming exclusive after the pain of trading in for them.

As for the R9=R5+R4 swaps, I see no equaling benefit to this. I would put a cost on the swap to the initiator of the swap, as chances are, they are looking for some advantage on the trade. Let' say it cost half price rounded down. R9 multi-swap, the initiator turns in cards equal to R4. R8 multi-swap, they still turn in cards equaling R4.

Risk vs. reward, right?

Amy Austin | November 2, 2008
Since Chris canceled the challenge in which the subject was brought up (rock blocks and, subsequently, exclusivity) -- and it's obviously on some minds -- I thought that perhaps it ought be continued here...

(my last comment)
Probably wouldn't have been so compelling as to provoke commentary from whomever did so if it hadn't been another R10.

I tend to agree with the proposition already made (by Russ, I believe) that it's not terribly fair to be able to take cards so outranking those risked. I thought from the very beginning that a rock block exclusive would naturally be one of the cards played in concert but never complained when I discovered otherwise (after all, there weren't that many bands in the game at that point, so it was a bit more enticing to be able to pick *any* card whatsoever). However, I do think that this ability has been rather taken advantage of over the course of the game.

Steve West | November 2, 2008
I understand what you're saying Amy but I want to clarify one small thing. To achieve a Rock Block you aren't compelled to "risk" anything. The reward of exclusivity is given because of the difficulty of the achievement alone; not the risk of a card loss. I'm okay with choosing any card in your label and whether that choice makes sense to me is largely irrelevant. As long as it follows the existing rules, I'm okay with it. I'm also okay with discussing the merits of altering the rule. Initially, I also had the impression (and it makes certain sense) for the exclusive contract to be awarded to a band used in that concert. Sort of like, "You guys did the work, here's your reward", spoken to one of the bands.

Scott Hardie | November 2, 2008
Originally, I considered having the exclusive card come from the five used in that concert, but I changed my mind for two reasons.

1) Pulling off a rock block is really, really hard to do. If you brought five lame cards to the concert, bands you didn't like at all, what kind of reward would that be?

2) People eager for an exclusive deal with their favorite bands would bring only their most favorite cards to every concert. This would stifle variety and make it harder for them to win. I can honestly imagine having done it that way from the beginning. and hearing in here from half the players who are unhappy that they "have to" keep playing their favorite cards if they want an exclusive with them.

I also considered the idea of letting you sign an exclusive with any band, whether you had them in your label or not, but that seemed like going too far. You should have some incentive to acquire that card besides just liking the band depicted on it.

I also considered making R10s off-limits for exclusive deals, but that didn't seem right either. What about R9s that become exclusive and then get promoted? If your favorite performer happens to be an R10, that's not your fault; you deserve the exclusive you earned.

Exclusives are happening at roughly the rate I expected them to, and dropping off at roughly the rate I expected them to. (We've had 12 so far, 3 of which expired.) What happened much more than I expected was the acquiring of R10 cards, mostly through free giveaways in the Card Exchange. For a while there, that random selector loved the R10s, tossing them out like Halloween candy. All seven of the cards that are now R10s have been in the 10% of most-owned cards, the threshold over which they're no longer given away by the Card Exchange. Consequently, when someone signs an exclusive with an R10, there are a lot more players affected. (I wonder if the Card Exchange will resume its R10 giveaway spree when some of these exclusives expire.)

Amy Austin | November 2, 2008
I suppose it did seem like I was emphasizing rank over the other things that Steve mentioned about being limited to the cards in the concert -- but I had a similar initial impression (about the "reward" factor), too... even if it didn't seem that way by my comment.

Also keep in mind that my "last comment" on the matter wasn't initiated by *my* duress over the issue... but it obviously sounded like someone was upset enough by it to speak privately to Scott and/or Chris about it. Yes, it rankled me a tiny bit when I saw that it happened, but so little so that I was over it by the time I clicked on the next page, honestly. I only brought it up again as a response to the fact that it obviously made some waves with somebody... and so perhaps that person should discuss it here with the other players/everyone, rather than make any implications.

Even though I've been playing for quite a bit longer and against generally much harder opponents (mostly Steve), and I've never achieved a rock block, all it should prove to me is that a) anyone can do it at some point, under the right conditions, and b) if I want to improve those conditions, then I could simply challenge those players that I've pretty well established an edge against (no offense to Chris here... or anyone else that I've won against many times and/or who hasn't yet won against me) and with "the right conditions". But, see, the thing that keeps me from doing that is the fact that I don't generally value wins like that -- wins where it just seems like I'm kicking the crap out of the underdog. (Especially where the underdog is somebody that I don't know all too well. Much easier to beat on people I know in real life -- as Sarah knows Chris -- or to have at least been beaten by someone so much that it's just part of the chummy routine... as I feel it is with Steve. This is probably a large part of why I haven't yet made the "defeat 25 different players" achievement.) I much prefer to be the underdog, because then I don't feel any guilt when I win -- in fact, it's much more fun to win when you're the underdog! ;-D
Oh, yeah... and one other really important thing: YOU CAN'T GET A ROCK BLOCK IF YOU'RE THE *CHALLENGER*!

So, I will continue to play in my random and sporadic fashion against mostly the same handful of players, without holding my breath for a RB... or bitching about it when others do. At least... not to anyone but myself, for only the briefest moment.

Scott Hardie | November 2, 2008
I should clarify that if the rules were changed so that your exclusive had to be one of the five cards from that concert, you wouldn't have to bring all five favorites. You would only need to bring one favorite and protect it.

Sarah Kyle | November 3, 2008
Amy I agree with you. That is why I play chris as much because I know him and when I beat him or he beats me we can tease each other about it. I like to play other people but it is limited to whom I play and when I can play considering now I have a son. I know a couple of people who will no longer play me because of my son. Long Story.. I understand where some people would think that I cheated to obtain that rock block but as I sent Scott a email letting him no there was no way on my end that I knew where he was playing and neither one of us knew where the invisibility card was played unless we are physic.. lol.. Another thing that was brought to me was on a goo on craig schnucks. I knew that goo within 10 seconds of reading the clue..
1. because I have personally met craig schnucks and my aunts law firm represents him in st. louis..
2. I used to work at schnucks in high school and right before I got my job at casey's
3. The goo is the motto they go on in granite city when you are filling out your paper work to be hired..
I can understand where people are coming from when you know someone.. But think of all the people on here that know people personally.. I will not mention names.. If I was cheating on goo as well I would be right up there in the beginning instead of like in 15th or 16th place..