Comedy and Gender Politics

Scott Hardie | August 10, 2006
This may be too touchy of a subject, we'll see.

At lunch today, the topic turned to political correctness, and how we can't just tell each other jokes any more without someone somewhere getting offended or ruling the joke inappropriate. I'm guilty of it myself sometimes, turning up my nose at something as innocent as a fart joke in a movie because I was raised that that's not funny. But on the other hand, doesn't analysis ruin comedy? On one stinging occasion in college, I submitted a humorous essay that got some laughs when read aloud, and then was dragged through reams of analysis over whether I was out to destroy feminine intellect (of course not) just because it was conceivable to interpret the (genderless) main character as female and it was the butt of the jokes. Believe me, it was a forty-five minute discussion, and after the first ten minutes nobody could possibly find it funny any more.

There are lots of different explanations, but I couldn't help recalling a study I read in the Associated Press last year. Scientists had studied the humor centers of men's brains and women's brains in search of differences. They found that while men reacted instantly to humorous stimuli, women had a split-second pause of analysis before laughing, as if sizing up the joke first. The consequence was that men could laugh at anything (which explains The Three Stooges) but never achieved a high level of appreciation from the humor, while women ruled out some things as unfunny but when something did strike their funny bone, the pleasure center in their brain reached much greater highs.

If that's true, and if there's been a feminization of American cultural thinking over the last few decades, could it be that we have all been trained to analyze a joke before we laugh at it, and thus deem it unfunny if it is potentially offensive to our collective sensibilities? That could be a good thing or a bad thing depending on your opinion of comedians like Richard Pryor, Bill Hicks, Carlos Mencia, Lenny Bruce, George Carlin, and even Andrew Dice Clay. What do you think?

Anna Gregoline | August 10, 2006
That's really interesting, Scott! I think it's totally true that people tend to size up a joke a lot more these days.

And I KNOW it's true that I have to think about a joke a second before I laugh (at least the ones told to me, like, "A guy walks into a bar..."

And I absolutely hate hearing sexist and racist jokes.

Aaron Shurtleff | August 10, 2006
Hmm...I don't know, Scott. I think part (or even all) of the humor of Carlos Mencia or Dave Chappelle (as examples, I'm sure there are others) is the "Oh no, you DIDN'T" factor. They tell the kind of jokes that are only funny (to me, at least) because they are saying the things that are funny, but at the same time offensive. If I tried to say half of the things Carlos Mencia gets away with about "beaners", I'd be strung up in a tree (upside-down, etc. [inside joke]) IF I got off easy! I mean, I agree with you that a lot of people are more analytical about what they find funny, but there is still a percentage that laughs (maybe in secrecy) at what would be considered the cruder racist/sexist jokes.

What kind of humor appreciation do you need for Three Stooges? Either an eye-poke is funny or not..you can't analyze the eye-poke! :)

Lori Lancaster | August 10, 2006
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Lori Lancaster | August 10, 2006
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Jackie Mason | August 10, 2006
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Aaron Shurtleff | August 10, 2006
That's why I've only ever used the term "beaner" twice, and this was the second time right now! ;)

Anna Gregoline | August 10, 2006
I find Carlos Mencia to be the worst and most annoying comic prominent right now.

I guess I'm boring, but I don't find anyone who tries to be offensive funny. I just think they're a total rude idiot.

Scott Hardie | August 11, 2006
Sudden shocks in comedy remind me of sudden shocks in horror movies: Sure they're effective, but they're also a lazy technique, the most blunt instrument in the toolbox. They're best when combined with other forms. I'm reminded of Happiness and There's Something About Mary, two movies that start you laughing with the outrageousness of their subject matter and then work in embarrassment comedy, character comedy, physical comedy, and more. Maybe I'm just a snob, but I'm not alone in my opinion.

Carlos Mencia isn't a favorite of mine, but that's only because he has hammered relentlessly on the subject of race in each of the handful of his performances I have seen. Does anything else interest this man than his single-minded fascination with race? I'm sure he has other wonderful material on subjects such as his loved ones being walking reproductive organs (unless that itself was a racist joke about Latino birth rates), but I haven't seen it.

Jackie Mason | August 11, 2006
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Lori Lancaster | August 11, 2006
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John E Gunter | August 11, 2006
Mexican and Jewish, that is diffferent! Wonder what growing up was like for him.

I know what you say about the Mexico and Catholicism, Lori. But remember, they had to save the Mexican people though! At least that's what they thought!

Personally, I think it was a terrible loss of culture, but hey, past history.

Michael Paul Cote | August 11, 2006
If comedians like Mencia and Chappelle and any others that use race in there humor, only picked on other races, it might be more offensive to me. But these guys pick on their own race as well (the skit "Wetback Mountain" from Mencia springs to mind). Maybe in a strange way, they are trying to break down racial barriers, by showing us how stupid and offensive it is to be racist. They say laughter is the best medicine and laughing at something stupid takes the sting out. George Carlin has always been one of my favorites and he points out stupid things done by any and everybody. Bill Maher is the same way. As far as feminism goes, most female comics these days have no problems digging on women. So who knows. Comedy is like food, everyone needs it, but not everyone cares for the same type.

Anna Gregoline | August 11, 2006
See, I get the "breaking down barriers" point of Chappelle's comedy, but it doesn't come through for me in Mencia's - perhaps because Chappelle's a lot more gentle and Mencia seems really mean about it? I don't think comedy has to be cruel to anyone in order to be funny. Calling his mother a walking uterus? This little gem:

"Announcer: The vaguvinator! Vaguvinate your vagina and make him think it's your first time, every time!"

Disgusting to me. Demeaning to women.

I saw some other quotes but I really don't want to look for any more right now, it's bumming me out. Something about how people in trailer parks shouldn't get sympathy when tornados come in because their houses have wheels? Uh, I've never seen a trailer park where the houses DID have wheels, so I'm just a bit confused by that one.

Anyway, not my cup of tea.

Who ARE the prominent female comics these days? I honestly don't know.

Amy Austin | August 11, 2006
Exactly, Mike! This is what I've been thinking about it, too.

BTW, Mencia makes fun of men, too (the male stereotype).

I was going to ask Lori if the "walking uterus" joke would have made her feel the same way if he were Catholic, but not Mexican (feeling the same as Scott, that it was more a poke at Latin birth rates than anything else)... but then she brought up the Mexican-Catholic connection. Well, my question was more like, "what if he were Irish Catholic?" Would it still have the same effect? Is it really the race/religion dig part of it, or is it *actually* the female dig part, like what bothers Anna, about it?

Amy Austin | August 11, 2006
Anna:

link
link

Certainly not all-inclusive lists, but a starting point for you.

Anna Gregoline | August 11, 2006
Eh, no thanks, I was looking for personal opinions. I can Google fine on my own.

Amy Austin | August 11, 2006
Well, s'cuse me then.

Steve Dunn | August 11, 2006
I'm fascinated by the style of entertainment (comedians, movies, books, whatever) that attempts to be as offensive and taboo as humanly possible.

True, much of it is lowest common denominator stuff with ephemeral artistic value. But the "good" offensive stuff, I think, is important social commentary. I don't spend much time being offended by popular culture - I just take it in, for what it's worth.

Social mores change over time. It wasn't that long ago that it was shocking for Lucille Ball to say she was "pregnant" on TV. Imagine that! In the 50s there was a large and influential segment of polite society that was offended and considered it self-evidently impolite to say the word "pregnant" in public. The same people exist today - they just get the heebie-jeebies from different things now.

I am drawn to artists who shatter those conventions. Offensiveness for its own sake can be tiresome, but done right, it's right on the leading edge of what's happening now. Peeling back the layers of the onion of societal hypocrisy.

Whatever it is you're "not supposed to say," I want to see the guy who's screaming it from the rooftops.

Amy Austin | August 11, 2006
Steve, have you ever seen Lenny Bruce: Swear to Tell the Truth? If not, you really should!

Anna Gregoline | August 11, 2006
Well, s'cuse me then.

It wasn't meant to be rude, Amy, but I really can find out such things on my own - I'm Internet Savvy, you know. I was looking more for conversation, not for a list of people. Isn't that what we're here for? =)

Lori Lancaster | August 11, 2006
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Steve Dunn | August 11, 2006
Lenny Bruce is one of the people I had in mind when I said what I said, but I haven't seen that film. I'll add it to my Netflix queue. I've been on a bit of an Andy Kaufman kick lately.

Anna, for what it's worth, I was also thrown off by your question, "Who ARE the prominent female comics these days? I honestly don't know."

Regardless of what was meant or how it was taken, I'm of the strong opinion that Amy and Anna should get together and hang out, maybe shotgun a few beers, play some horseshoes and sing Jimmy Buffet songs a little too loud. It's impossible to miscommunicate online after you've had that experience together. Throw in a NASCAR race and some hot wings and you'll be naming kids after each other. What can I say? I'm a lover, not a fighter.

Anna Gregoline | August 11, 2006
Anna, for what it's worth, I was also thrown off by your question, "Who ARE the prominent female comics these days? I honestly don't know."



What threw you off about it, out of curiosity? I'd hoped that someone would offer up a favorite female comic.

Lori Lancaster | August 11, 2006
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Anna Gregoline | August 11, 2006
I think NASCAR is boring too - I'm afraid I don't see the fascination. And I'm scarred for life from Jimmy Buffett - my dad is a ParrotHead!

Steve Dunn | August 11, 2006
I was thrown off by your choice of the word "prominent" because I interpreted it as asking who are the most well-known or notable female comics, as opposed to people's favorites. I was thrown off by your statement "I honestly don't know" because I interpreted it as eliciting factual information rather than people's opinions.

I thought Amy's response was exactly was you were looking for, so I was surprised for a moment when you bit her head off.

Your rejection of my whimsical metaphorical olive branch on Amy's behalf if noted. I'll not make the effort again.

Anna Gregoline | August 11, 2006
Ok, I'm sorry because apparantly I've pissed off both you and Amy, which was not my intention. Backing out of the thread now.

Have a nice weekend everybody, sorry I fuck up in just trying to talk to people all the time.

Jackie Mason | August 11, 2006
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Amy Austin | August 11, 2006
Wow... you step away for a few minutes, and you've got people wanting to name your kids! ;-D

I would love a chance to hang out with anyone & everyone here... and that includes you, Anna!

No worries about the above -- I am so not even dwelling on it, I want everyone to know... I hope you will feel the same way real soon, Anna.

Thank you, Steve, for the token gesture; and thank you, Lori, for the compliment! Anna, no offense intended or taken -- I was just feeling exactly like Steve said... like you really didn't know. Thought the links would give you a memory jolt of "oh, yeah... I didn't think of her!"

I would readily agree with the statement that female comics *seem* overlooked and less of a presence than males -- the numbers alone are still 2 to 1. But I really think that if you can't name any or think of at least a favorite or two, then you just aren't paying enough attention -- and that's what I mean about them being "easily overlooked"... I'm just as guilty.

Personally, I think Ellen DeGeneres is just about the funniest woman on earth and the one whose wit I would most love to have. I didn't follow her show after her outing (not intentionally, just coincidentally), but I'm sure that what you describe had no small impact on the fate of her show. However, I have enjoyed the handful of times that I've watched her talk show -- very funny -- and I absolutely LOVE her stand-up. Here & Now is HILARIOUS, if you ever catch it on HBO: I've seen it at least 3 or 4 times now, and I still laugh out loud and tear up. Pickle claw/toilet paper claw... sheer genius.

Once upon a time, I didn't really find Laura Kightlinger all that funny, but I've really enjoyed her lately on Louis C.K.'s new HBO play-series, Lucky Louie -- his stand-up is quite funny, too, and you can see bits of it played out in the show. Pamela Adlon plays his "straight girl" wife very well, too.

I don't know if it's because I'm a woman, or if it's pretty universally perceived, but Generally Speaking, I do tend to find male comics funnier and feel like the women have to "try harder" to get laughs. I don't know why that is, really... it's the same with men in drag vs. women in drag -- men, innately funnier (though, for more obvious reasons, I think). Ellen is one of the few women that I just find really LOL funny (and she's gay -- odd that... perhaps it *is* a "guy thing" -- ;-D). Although, E & I did recently see another woman, whose name escapes me, that unexpectedly made us both laugh pretty hard. We also laughed at Rita Rudner when we saw her perform live in Vegas a year and a half ago... but it's pretty sad if you don't enjoy a live performance, too. Her brand of comedy is very low-key, understated and "old school" though -- best the first time around and for people who like it clean and mild (as in "Born to be..."). (But Ellen's act is pretty clean, too... yet I can watch her over and over again?)

So, there you have it, Anna -- a more thorough discourse on female comics and my opinion of them... hope this is more along the lines of what you were looking for. (Seriously.)

Scott Hardie | August 12, 2006
All I can say is, I have some good ideas for future Comedy goos now. Thank you. :-)

Amy Austin | August 12, 2006
No problem! ;-)

Aaron Shurtleff | August 14, 2006
Hmmm... When I try to think about female comedians, I can really only come up with ones I do not like (Margaret Cho), or who are famous for reasons outside of being comedians (Whoopie Goldberg, Janeane Garofalo). But, when I see the list, I think, "Oh, yeah! She's funny! I forgot about her!" I wonder if that's a factor of female comedians (comediennes?) not having the same type of mass exposure that male comedians have? It's not that I don't know of them, they just don't stick out in my mind as well.

There's another one, who I think is totally funny, but I can't even think of her name... It's Sarah Silverman, and the only reason I came up with it was I looked up Jimmy Kimmel! Is it just me, or do other people have a block like that? Does this make me sexist?!

Kris Weberg | August 14, 2006
I was reading an entry at some other site -- can't remember where -- that pointed out that the film My Super Ex-Girlfriend would almost certainly not have played as a comedy if the genders were reversed; that is, if it were the story of a woman being harrassed, assaulted, and stalked by her superhero ex-boyfriend who couldn't get over their breakup.

There are definitely funny female comedians (or as they used to be called, comediennes). Elayne Boosler, for example, was always a riot, but she seems to have stopped performing. Likewise, I enjoy the stand-up work of Rita Rudner and Wanda Sykes. That said, it does seem like the women stand-ups who get the most exposure are somehow the least funny. I've literally never laughed at any joke Kathy Griffin has ever made.

Finally, I think that all comedy is in some way aggressive, if not always cruel. We just tend to notice when the aggression is directed at entire classes of people rather than at specific persons or characters.

Amy Austin | August 14, 2006
See... we watch Kathy Griffin and her show My Life on the D-List all the time, and yet I totally forgot to mention her!

Finally, I think that all comedy is in some way aggressive, if not always cruel. We just tend to notice when the aggression is directed at entire classes of people rather than at specific persons or characters.

So true, Kris. In fact, I am always marveling at how much cruelty/suffering feeds comedy -- one need only watch an episode of AFV to see this! That probably accounts for much of Kathy Griffin's success, too -- her style is all about aggressively taking celebrities down a notch or two... and we find it pretty funny, actually. It's probably playing to the most ignoble of human traits -- envy -- but, how else are you supposed to take comfort in seeing the lifestyles led by people who entertain us in our little bits of spare time away from a grind that only supports a very humble/average lifestyle???

And Aaron, that was exactly part of my point above... why *are* female comics so much more forgettable??? I don't think you're a sexist, because it happens to me, too... and I think it's pretty common -- but why? Maybe just the fact that they are outnumbered 2 to 1 and therefore only account for a third of all the comedy we take in??? Or does it go deeper than that...

Michael Paul Cote | August 14, 2006
Lisa Lampanelli is another very funny comedian that can be extremely "politically incorrect". I agree with Aaron about Sarah Silverman. Also there is a young man, Josh Blue, who won "Last Comic Standing". He has Cerebral Palsy and uses it prominently (figuratively and litteraly) in his routine. He is extremely funny even tho some might be a bit uncomforable with his poking fun at himself. I recommend checking him out.

Amy Austin | August 14, 2006
Yes, we saw him, too! And I find him hilarious... although, yes, it is a little uncomfortable to laugh at someone's "disability" -- but that's how he puts himself out there. And, as I told E, not everyone can make it that funny (he isn't the first and probably won't be the last) -- but he seems to be a comic natural!

Scott Hardie | August 16, 2006
Kathy Griffin is an acquired taste, and I see her appeal, but I am not among the acquired myself. The only thing about her I've found funny is when The X Files did an episode where there were two of the same woman and whenever they met face-to-face the universe started imploding on itself, and they cast Kathy Griffin in the part. Talk about being born to play a role!

Ok, ok, I'll stop. Nobody likes my favorites either.

I was recently bemused to learn that Trace Beaulieu became head writer on AFV after leaving MST3K. The man who voiced Crow went on to give Bob Saget "funny" things to say for animals and babies. I hope they paid him well, at least.

My Super Ex-Girlfriend was supposed to be a comedy?

Jackie Mason | August 16, 2006
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Russ Wilhelm | August 19, 2006
Why aren't female comedians as popular as their male counterparts?

My first thought was..."Because, to a large extent, they're just not that funny"

Of course when I mentioned this to my better half, I found that (once again, habitually), I was wrong. And this time, I can say it with total honesty.

So, anyway, I'll try to explain as best I can. Here's the deal. They're not as popular because approximately half they're target audience are "MEN". THAT'S IT!!!





ok. ok.

We "men" are basically characters of the "Tim Taylor" style. We understand humor that tends to lean more towards a physical state. Pull my finger, overdone, and yet we'll still smirk. Sure, sometimes it's subtle, but in the end, there's still not alot going on up there.

Women, on the other hand, have things going on that we "men" can't even begin to comprehend. Chances are the we have never experienced bloating, cramps, emotional bonding, male inadequacies (ok, so maybe we know about that, but we won't admit to it),...the list goes on.

So yeah, I think women have the upper hand in this area in a manner of speaking. Us "men", we just don't get it. But you women, you know us quite well, and you understand each other.

While male comedians have the popularity, female commedians have a much broader topic base to draw from. Maybe not a fair trade-off, but it does leave me feeling not so much rounded.


If I had to choose:

Male comedians (based on standup, not thrilled with either's show)

Favorite: Bill Cosby, never crude, never racist, and the only comedian I know that has made me laugh from start to finish, always.

Least favorite: Jerry Seinfeld, for some reason (and it must be me, since I've never met anyone who didn't think he was the greatest comedian in our time) he has never made me even think about laughing.

Female Comedians (based on television, because that's the only one's I can remember by name (sorry, slightly embarassed))

Favorite: Roseanne (except for the last season), I guess this goes back to that physical humor, almost as if it was written by "Men". Dysfunctional family, more realistic economic look at how the average family lives, children/parents battling for superiority. I get that.

Least favorite: Ellen DeGeneres, saw the first two shows, never went back. Actually did see her do standup once, never went back.

Jackie Mason | August 19, 2006
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Scott Hardie | August 19, 2006
Well put, Russ. It makes me wonder why we don't see more married comedy teams.

I just finished watching seasons 1 & 2 of Seinfeld on DVD, and I have a whole new appreciation of the show. It has been declared "the show about nothing" so many times that that may as well be its subtitle, but it is about something: Where comedians get their ideas. It's two standup comics, Jerry Seinfeld and Larry David, walking around in their daily lives and riffing on the things and people they encounter, and then turning their dialogue into scripts, with George taking Larry's place. People getting worked up about the "show about nothing" concept and how genius it is reminds me of how fellow college students introduced me to Clerks by saying there's a guy named Silent Bob! and he doesn't talk! and ohmygod isn't that brilliant!

Adrianne Rodgers | August 28, 2006
Well, even as a female comic myself, I have to admit, the majority of my favorites are male. And even though I'm limited to local clubs, and I'm not planning on pursuing this as a career, I've noticed that I get a lot more laughs when I use a more masculine approach. Masculine style observational humor is usually a winner. I think my favorite comic would have to be Jim Gaffigan. Somehow he manages to be sidesplitting talking about Cinnabons.

But yeah, at the moment, it seems like there's about two female comics that are really famous, and those are Ellen DeGeneres who, after seeing one of her standup routines, I just never thought was very funny. ("You know how people trip, and then they start to run?") and Sarah Silverman, who I like, but she can be just as shocking as Carlos Mencia.

Erik Bates | August 30, 2006
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Jackie Mason | September 1, 2006
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Erik Bates | September 1, 2006
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Kris Weberg | September 2, 2006
Same here, Erik -- a lot of my favorite bands feature female singers: Jefferson Airplane, My Bloody Valentine, the Cardigans, pre-2000 Garbage, Kirsty MacColl, and so forth.

As to the lack of visible, successful, and funny female comics, I wonder how much of that has to do with a phenomenon I call "butt-ugly man, hot woman," which afflicts actors. A man can have a career in TV and even film and be, frankly, hideous or at least "ugly" -- meaning normal-looking rather than Hollywoodesque. A woman, by and large, can't have a career in either of those media without being at least somewhat attractive. I really can't name an actress other than perhaps Judi Dench, Roseanne Barr, or Bea Arthur who had a long career and wasn't physically attractive (at least at the beginning of said career).

But Steve Buscemi, John Goodman, Paul Giamatti, Phillip Seymour Hoffman, and so forth are all quite well known, and not a one of them is what most would call handsome. All of them have long and healthy careers in movies. Likewise, the average male stand-up comedian is, well, let's be honest, below average in looks. Drew Carey, for instance.

Meanwhile, Sarah Silverman, perhaps the best-known female comic working today, is by most standards an attractive woman. Margaret Cho had to slim down tremendously to get her short-lived TV sitcom, and that was where I'll bet most of us first heard of her. Lisa Lampanelli isn't slim, young, or all that attractive...and until Comedy Central's roasts, I'd never heard of her. Janeane Garofalo had to slim down to get movie roles and late show appearances.

Scott Hardie | September 2, 2006
Good points, Jackie and Kris. This has a lot more to do with culture than we realize.

I'm on the female-rock-singer bandwagon, too; I have a harder time listening to male rock singers. Sahara Hotnights, the Donnas, the Distillers, Elastica, Shivaree, Le Tigre, even softer artists like Aimee Mann and the Cardigans, they're all more pleasing. The inverse is true with country music: Male singers please my ears, but the twang in a female singer's voice just annoys the hell out of me. [insert comment about how all country music annoys you]

Kris Weberg | September 3, 2006
Apparently the New York Times Sunday Magazine insert has a feature story on why "Hollywood has stopped creating roles for ambitious actresses."

Amy Austin | September 4, 2006
I've always had a preference for female vocalists myself -- and although I can't help but agree with Scott about female country vocals, I do love Patsy Cline. I find Shania Twain -- more pop/country crossover than true country -- quite tolerable, too. I've even enjoyed an occasional Loretta Lynn or Dolly Parton song, as well. I'm not really sure how much I'd attribute this to gender, though, as opposed to classic vs. contemporary country music... I generally prefer any classic country over contemporary -- be the vocalists male *or* female.

I hate to seem to be adding evidence to the contrary of your argument, Jackie, but I don't entirely disagree with you... I do believe that women can be very viciously competitive. I think women are much more prone than men to taking career moves personally and dishing out heaping helpings of sabotage in the form of personal attacks and emotional abuse... it's called "mean girls syndrome" (as, I imagine, the movie by the same name is predicated on -- haven't seen it yet), and it's very real. It's rather obvious that it stems from suppression of typically male aggressive behavior (fisticuffs, etc.) -- the aggression simply being channeled into a sort of verbal brawling. One can only hope that these tendencies will be outgrown by man/womanhood.

But what I think is the far more insidious cultural norm -- a way of thinking that women also seem to suffer from to a greater degree than men -- is the idea that there's just "not enough to go around". People feel like they need to get their piece of the pie before the pie is all gone, and I think that in women's eyes, there's just that much less pie to be had. It only seems to follow that we'd adopt a "whatever it takes" attitude: for men, that might mean beating up another guy to take his pie piece; but for women, it's more about finding a way to trick someone else out of their pie piece... and if that way can't be found, then look out... because you might just find that your pie has been poisoned!

Jackie Mason | September 6, 2006
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