Dave Mitzman | October 9, 2004
Read the subject. That is all.

Anthony Lewis | October 9, 2004
They have to win one more game.

Then they have Boston. And if they get by Boston, they'll have to deal with whom I believe will be St. Louis.

The Yankees will NOT be holding the would championship trophy at the end of October. Bank on it.

Anthony Lewis | October 9, 2004
And John Sterling has to be the worst broadcaster in the history of sports radio.

Mike Eberhart | October 9, 2004
The Yankee's SUCK!!!! That's all there is to it...

Anna Gregoline | October 9, 2004
Wow, Mike Eberhart and I AGREE on something! =)

Jackie Mason | October 9, 2004
[hidden by author request]

Scott Hardie | October 9, 2004
The Yankees do not suck. Obviously, they're a team of champions. It's the Yankee FANS who suck.

Sorry Dave. ;-)

Kris Weberg | October 9, 2004
Oh, I dunno, Scott, I'd say the Yankees suck on a conceptual level. "Buy your own championship" is not what sports should be about.

Scott Horowitz | October 10, 2004
I hate the "Buy your own championship" mentality that Yankee Haters have. There are several teams in the top payrolls that did not make the playoffs. There are no rules preventing teams from spending money, and if you have the money why waste it? Minnesota played a great series, and they are a small market team. And saying a team sucks when they have won more championships than any other team in US sports history (I would say world, but I am not sure about soccer internationally) is impressive. They have won their division for the last 6 years. Made the world series 5 times in the last 6 years, and won 4 of those. Is this a team that sucks?

Dave Mitzman | October 10, 2004
Only one word really describes the sentiment of non-yankee fans here: JEALOUSY.

Scott made the very valid point that the Twins are not a big market team, yet they have made the playoffs consistently (and will probably do so again next year).

The Marlins won last year and their payroll wasn't huge (same in 1997). Anaheim Angels in 2002 is another example. Even to take it a step further, the Padres in 1998 weren't a big budget team (even though they didn't win the series).

It's all a matter of putting together the right team for the task. Sure the Yankees have one the largest bankrolls in baseball, but George Steinbrenner has the money to spend. However, if your teammates cannot form together and play as a team, they won't win. Look at the Texas Rangers. Alex Rodriguez is the highest paid player in history, and Texas wasn't all that great (and they were spending the money). Just like Michael Jordan in basketball, one man a team doesn't make.

26 times world champions is a feat that has yet to be beaten. Not only that, Steinbrenner hasn't always been the owner and the Yankees were winning championships 50 years before any of us were born.

I'm looking very forward to the ALCS in a couple of days because it will be the best 6 games we'll see (and I'm calling Yankees in 6). You've got two insanely competitive teams with the passion to win and intensive rivalry to boot. Not to mention a "curse", which if you believe in that, could cause the Bosox their chance.

To all you Yankee haters out there, aside from the "buy your team" mentality, I have never heard any valid reason for hating the team. I hate the Mariners. Why? Because they knocked out my boys in 1995. Sure, I'll blame Steve Howe and his 3084th second chance on some of that. I hate the Braves. Why? Present me with a good reason to like them. I hate their owner, I hate Chipper Jones and his attitude, and the rest of the players. I hate the Indiana Pacers because of 1995 (and if you watch basketball and know where I'm from, you'll know what I mean).

I've given my reason for my dislike of sports teams, what's your reason for hating the yanks? And like I said before, don't feed me the "buy your team" bull, because that's all it is.

Anthony Lewis | October 10, 2004
I agree with the "buy your team" deal, because if you have the money to invest in your team, you do it. They've been able to do it wisely...unlike my team.

That being said...I live in NYC, and I hate the Yankees SOLELY because of their arrogant fans. They think because their favorite baseball team won all of those championships, that they, in turn, have evolved into a higher form of life. When they won in 1996, I was actually happy for them. It was their first since 1978. But when they won in 1999...that's when my feelings irreversibly changed. Their fans walk the streets like their shit don't stink. They look at fans of other teams like they are lesser human beings (and don't tell me I'm overreacting, because I see it every day). So when they lose, we revel in it.

And their fans are hypocrites. In 2000, when the Yankees defeated the Mets, I had Yankee fans tell me "We have the World Championship. You have the NL Championship. It means nothing." In 2001, when the Yankees lost to Arizona, Yankee fans said, "Well, at least we have the AL Championship." And I remarked to them, "Last year, you told me that the league championship meant nothing. And now you're celebrating the league championship? You guys are a bunch of phonies." And that's what Yankee fans are. A bunch of phonies. And they like to say "We" a lot, like they put on the uniform, stepped on the field and played an inning.

Yankee fans suck. That's why I hate the Yankees. Their failure makes me happy, because I get to see their fans cry and sulk. It's a beautiful thing.

Anna Gregoline | October 11, 2004
I hate the Yankees and the Yankees fan for one thing - arrogance. They're so cocky, who can like that?

And all the reasons listed here.

Todd Brotsch | October 11, 2004
The Yankees and fans of the Yankees act the way they act for a few reasons.

They've won the World Series 26 times.

They've appeared in the World Series 38 times.

They've won the American League Pennant 39 times.

I think the New York (Yankee) fans have a right to display a bit of cockyness. If your team performed as well as them I'm sure you'd be acting the same way. No one argues about Atlanta fans, the way they act, even though they too have had an amazing team through the last few decades, or the Athletics of late.

All that being said, I plan on seeing the Twinkies in the playoffs again next year, they did amazingly well this year, deffinitly giving New York a great series.

I do see the Bo-Sox taking the ALCS in seven games though.

In the end, who wins? The Fans win, every time a series like this comes along where excellent baseball is being played.

Thoes that look at a 'too dominant team' aren't fans of the true nature of the game. Just people who look to denigrate grateness.

Anna Gregoline | October 11, 2004
A little humility goes a long way.

Scott Hardie | October 11, 2004
Those who root for a winning team have a reason to brag about the victories -- and those who must hear it have just as much reason to scorn the braggarts.

Todd Brotsch | October 11, 2004
Humility?

"Losers always whine about their best. Winners go home and fuck the prom queen."

Kris Weberg | October 11, 2004
Thank you, Todd, for aptly demonstrating exactly just how Yankee fans have made their championship team one of the most hated in the country.

Kris Weberg | October 11, 2004
Pride in a victory your team has earned is one thing; a concomitant contempt for anyone else's is...well, being a Yankees fan, as far as I can tell.

Todd Brotsch | October 11, 2004
No Problem.

Did you some how glean that I was a Yankee fan? If that's the case you'd be wrong. Just wanted to let you know that.

Kris Weberg | October 11, 2004
So you aren't a Yankees fan, but just vocally in favor of crude, obnoxious boastfulness in general?

Good to know.

Todd Brotsch | October 11, 2004
Just a fan of good debate......Trust me, as a Bills fan, all sorts of beating up is quite normal. You go to the superbowl four times in a row failing each time....that's just depressing.

Besides, why do you think, they, we, them are fan's? Fan is short for fanatical for a reason...

Scott Horowitz | October 11, 2004
Being a fan is not cheering for your team when they are winning the division every year. I have been a Yankee fan since I was born (was at the 1978 World Series in utero). Everyone seems to think, the Yankees win every year. Let's take a look at the 80s. They appeared in the 1981 World Series, losing to the LA Dodgers. Then they started a downward spiral that would plummet them to the bottom of the American League for several years.. The Yankees would not appear in the Post season again until 1995 when they lost to the Seattle Mariners in the first round. Yes, the 80s were the only decade since the 10s that the Yankees did not win a world series, so we have little to complain about. But, I am proud to say that I am not an obnoxious fan. I root for my team.

Anna Gregoline | October 11, 2004
How is "Humility?

Losers always whine about their best. Winners go home and fuck the prom queen."

good debate? I'm leaving this conversation because it's too bizarre for me. I don't know why people get so upset about sports anyway.

Todd Brotsch | October 11, 2004
Sorry, line from The Rock, it's humor must have been lost.

My apologies.

Anna Gregoline | October 11, 2004
The Rock and humor are allowed together in one sentence now?

Scott Horowitz | October 11, 2004
Not The Rock the wrestler... The Rock the movie... it's a line Sean Connory says/.

Anna Gregoline | October 11, 2004
Ah. Either way - what a strange line about the culture of "winning" everything, and how sad that anyone would equate winning with having sex with anyone.

Scott Horowitz | October 11, 2004
I think you misunderstand the meaning of the quote. He's saying that Losers always complain, while Winners just do.

Anna Gregoline | October 11, 2004
I think the quote is perfectly understandable - but vulgar as all get out, and uses a woman as a prize to be won, which just disgusts me.

Kris Weberg | October 11, 2004
I dunno, it seems to me from this thread -- 'You're all just JEALOUS" and so on -- that winners complain too.

Anna Gregoline | October 11, 2004
I'm also quite sick of the response "You're all jealous" when people have their obnoxiousness pointed out to them.

Kris Weberg | October 12, 2004
It's rigt up there with telling someone, 'You're defensive!"

I hate that one, I really do, because if you object, it's as though you've proven that you're defensive, but if you don't, you've basically just taken it and admitted that they're right, and you're defensive. No matter what you do in response, you lose.

Dave Mitzman | October 12, 2004
Ok I think you've overanalyzed what Todd said way too much. It's a damn movie quote, not something to chew him out over. The quote is 100% appropriate for this discussion. Foul language and vulgarness aside, it stands true.

This is the Internet, a forum for us to voice our opinions, and none of us should be censored. I'm not going to come out and start up a thread with coarse racial slurs, but when I'm here I realize that people will say what they say, like it or not, and there isn't a thing I can do about it with the exception of cry to Scott Hardie and I'm not going to do that. Even though it appears untrue, I do respect other people's opinions.

And as for the jealousy thing, if your favorite team dominates the sport, you'd act the same exact way the rest of us Yankee fans act.

Kris Weberg | October 12, 2004
Dave, you've confused censoring with censuring. No one's deleted Todd's comments or yours, and no one's preventing you from posting, as far as I can tell.

And no, if my team were dominating, I wouldn't act like a Yankees fan. I've been a lifelong bears fan, but I didn't spend 1984-7 running around telling people their teams suck, or shouting about being the greatest becuase the Bears were rockin' it. When the Cubs made the playoffs last year, I didn't spend my damn time making fun of the rest of the League.

The thing that just makes this hilarious for me is that Yanks fans apparently haven't actually got the confidence in their team to suck it up a little. It's as though they're shocked out of their minds that someone might not like their team! "How can anyone dislike the Yankees?!? They win games!"

Well, guess what -- I don't like the Yankees. From what I see, I don't much care for the attitude of their fans. Doesn't mean the Yankees don't win games, and it doesn't mean they're bad ballplayers. It means -- *gasp* -- I have a different preference, and I don't much care for having other people's opinions hurled at me as though they were self-evident truths.

For Yankees fans, that seems to be a way of life.

Kris Weberg | October 12, 2004
Oh, and as a side note, I take this "there's no such thing as a humble winner" idea to be proof that anyone saying it enjoys being an asshole. It's the equivalent of shouting "neener neener" at the top of your lungs, here compounded by the fact that people are saying it about the triumph of a team they're not on run by an organization they don't belong to.

Dave Mitzman | October 12, 2004
I can bet you that when the Cubbies made the playoffs last year, a good number of fans acted just like us Yankee fans. The reason the Yankee fans stand out more than any other team is because the team is in the playoffs and dominates almost every year. Has anyone also forgotten where the Yankees are? Look at the general attitude of most New Yorkers and the same goes for other teams like Boston. I put up with die hard Boston fans of the same caliber every year and I dish it out back to them. It's the nature of the game and the fans that surround it.

Now if I were a cubs fan, I would be absolutely more of a fanboy to the team because they haven't won anything since 1908. If anything that's a reason to be more fanatical about the situation than any Yankees fan out there.

And Sorry Kris, we don't say "neener neener" we Play Sinatra from the speakers to rock the Bronx.

Scott Horowitz | October 12, 2004
Cubs fans are worse than Yankee fans. They imploded a baseball because of what happened at the end of last season. And that guy had to move out of Chicago (and I don't think Alou would have caught that ball anyways).

Everyone just labels yankee fans obnoxious because their team wins. Trust me, anyone who follows sports is obnoxious about other teams. Even if their team sucks, someone will say how much another team sucks. Take The Met fans for example.

Todd Brotsch | October 12, 2004
...ahheemmm.....expos....bengals...

Scott Horowitz | October 12, 2004
Shut up Todd! :)

Anna Gregoline | October 12, 2004
I guess I just don't get the bragging and the general meanness about sports. I'm going to chalk it up to some male ego thing.

Dave Mitzman | October 12, 2004
You can't chalk it up to some "male ego thing". I know plenty of women who are more Yankee fanatics than some of the guys I know. Would it be ok for me now to come out and say how utterly insulted I am that you would take such a stance after you gave Todd a tongue-lashing about a movie quote?

Anna Gregoline | October 12, 2004
I figured that might happen after I said that. I apologize.

Ok, it's just a "people are too excited and mean about sports thing."

Happy?

Dave Mitzman | October 12, 2004
There's a reason we're called fanatics (as Todd mentioned earlier). There's nothing to get. Shouting out "Your team sucks!" is all part of the game. Throwing batteries at racist relief pitchers (if you're a New Yorker) is also part of the game.

Anna Gregoline | October 12, 2004
See, I think it's fun to just WATCH and enjoy the competition of the players. I have no need to get competetive with other watchers of the game. I want to enjoy myself, not have people I don't know telling me "I suck" because I like my team! I don't think that's hard to understand. Excitement is one thing - abuse is another, and I don't want to endure abuse just to watch a team I like. THAT'S why I hate this attitude.

Dave Mitzman | October 12, 2004
At no point in my posting in this thread did I ever say that a fan of a team sucked, nor did I imply that. You need to read a little more closely. You hate the attitude but you obviously misunderstand it because you didn't interpret it properly for what you just said.

An acquaintance from high school is a big Braves fan and in 1996 when it was a Braves/Yankees World Series, we had daily pesterings about the teams. Even when out watching games at a bar or something, not once did any of the other fans say "YOU SUCK!" and I never said that to them. Our comments were directed strictly at the team, never at each other.

You can hate the attitude all you want but don't forget, this attitude is not just Yankee fans, every sports team has fans just like that, and in this post we've seen several attacks directly on the Yankee fans. I'm not singling out you Anna about this, but everyone here who's said anything negative about myself and other Yankee fans. As far as I'm concerned, when you do that it makes you extremely hypocritcal in this situation. Not once has any of us said "Anthony Lewis you suck" or "Mike Eberhart you suck" because of your sports allegiances.

Kris Weberg | October 12, 2004
NO, I'm not buying that. In politics, in sport, in most things, I am consistently opposed to triumphalist asshattery.

Anthony Lewis | October 12, 2004
Asshattery?

Is that a word? It's gotta be because Kris used it.

I LOVE it! I'm going to use it the next time I get in an arguement with a Yankee fan.

"I'm tired of your triumphant asshattery!" That ought to shut them up.

Thanks Kris. :-)

BTW: I stand behing every single cotton-pickin' word I said about Yankee fans.

Anthony Lewis | October 12, 2004
Damn..I googled it!

Asshattery. What a fantastic word!

Anna Gregoline | October 12, 2004
"I'm not singling out you Anna about this, but everyone here who's said anything negative about myself and other Yankee fans. "

I read closely - you're missing the point. If you'll notice, I never said you suck either. But this is the attitude that one encounters when they go to sporting events, I'm sure you can't deny that this is what happens.

The very fact that this conversation has gone on so long is proof positive that people get far too hyper over this. What's it to you if we hate your team, for whatever reason?

Dave Mitzman | October 12, 2004
I can honestly say that I don't once ever recall being told that "You suck" when I was out at a sporting event. I've heard insults hurled at opposing teams and whatnot, but never was I told directly that.

It's your right to not like whichever team you don't, but as far as this thread goes, Anthony goes on a rant about Yankee fans and it becomes an all-out assault on us. I feel that's slightly uncalled for but as I said before, this is a forum for free speech.

And Anthony, because Kris is tired of some "triumphalist asshattery", it won't shut us up. Use whatever words you feel neccessary, but it doesn't change a single thing.

Anthony Lewis | October 12, 2004
Honestly, I don't want it to shut Yankee fans up. I want you guys to continue to keep talking. I want to see what excuses you have when Boston or St. Louis or Houston whoops the Yankees' collective ass....because Yankee fans are good at making excuses. REALLY GOOD. Almost as good as making complete asses of themselves.

Nothing personal Dave. I do hope you realize that. I am a human being, and if you needed help in the street, I'd do my very best TO help. I have very good friends who are Yankee fans, and I say the same things to them as well.They suck too.

It doesn't mean I don't love them.

They'll just get less in my will. :-)

Dave Mitzman | October 12, 2004
That's fine that you don't want to shut the Yankees fans up, but the problem here is that almost EVERYONE involved in this thread is saying how much they hate Yankee fans and whatnot, and here you are saying how much we suck yet not a single person jumps on you for it. It's extremely hypocritical to me.

Say the Yankees lose in the playoffs, ok they lost. The other team outplayed the Yanks. Doesn't sound like an excuse to me. That happened last year. The Yankees played like shit in the World Series and the Marlins won. Plain and simple. The Marlins were the better team at that point. Boston will be a tough team to get passed and the games will be great, but if we lose I won't make up some phony excuse.

Now if there's a bad call that cost the Yanks the game, then I believe the fans have a right to get upset. Sure I know that we've had our share of bad calls help the team out in major ways (lest we forget the 96 playoffs against the Orioles).

Anna Gregoline | October 12, 2004
Let me just say again I never said that the fans suck. But what you just said doesn't even make any sense:

"That's fine that you don't want to shut the Yankees fans up, but the problem here is that almost EVERYONE involved in this thread is saying how much they hate Yankee fans and whatnot, and here you are saying how much we suck yet not a single person jumps on you for it."

If a bunch of people are saying they hate Yankee fans, and someone else says they do too, then why would anyone object?

John E Gunter | October 12, 2004
Well, not all Yankees fans are loud and obnoxious. I want to point out that I'm a Yankees fan and this is the first time I've said anything in this thread. Bout the only thing I can say is, try not to generalize about people, because there's always an exception to the rule.

I try not to generalize about people, but being human, I do sometimes as well. But when you make a general statement like, this group is obnoxious or this group is great, there is a very strong possibility that since you are generalizing, you've miss labeled someone who doesn't fit the mold.

John

Mike Eberhart | October 12, 2004
Dave,
Just to clarify, I never said Yankee's fans suck. I said THE Yankee's suck. I totally understand how fans react, because I'm just like that with the Rams. I act crazy and get carried away at the games and that IS all part of going to a sporting event or watching it on TV.

As for my reason for not liking the Yankee's, it is does go along the lines of buying a championship, and what I mean by that is, everytime a major free agent comes on the market, there isn't ONE other team in the league that has a chance to land him because George Steinbrenner will just out bid them for that player. It happens every year. Did the Yankees really need A-Rod? NO, some other team could have used him to improve themselves.

Anna Gregoline | October 12, 2004
I think the idea of home teams doesn't make as much sense as it did probably way back when. Now that teams recruit from all over the world, a team isn't comprised of people from the region they represent. I think it would be more interesting if people were always recruited from the city they are from, kind of how the Olympic games were intended to be.

Scott Horowitz | October 12, 2004
First off there are plenty of big name free agents thatw the Yankees have not gotten, most predominately was Albert Pujols last year. As for A-Rod, there was no bidding for him. They traded him. Talent wise it was a fairly close trade. While A-Rod may be a better all around player, Soriano will come into his own as one of the greats soon enough. And if you noticed, Texas was a last place team last year, and they almost made the playoffs this year WITHOUT A-ROD. Sending A-Rod to the Yankees, freed up necessary payroll for them to get their team together.

Mike Eberhart | October 12, 2004
Anna this isn't amateur sports like the Olympics are supposed be, it's Professional. I don't care where the players come from, the HOME team aspect applies that the team is from your city, plus most of the players move to their home cities. And having a HOME field advantage is huge. It disrupts what the other teams are trying to do offensively, (of course I'm talking about football). So the idea of home teams have nothing to do with where players are from. Once a player is selected to play on one of our teams, we just accept them as if they have been here all along. That's the way it is.

Anthony Lewis | October 12, 2004
I don't fault the Yankees for this. That is what a team is supposed to do. You're supposed to invest in your team, and bring in the best players. I don't hate the Yankees for this. You're SAUPPOSED to go out and get A-Rod. Hell, I'm pissed at Mets management because they blew their chance to get him in 2001. It cut me like a knife last Valentine's Day when the Yankees signed him, but not becuse they signed him. Because my team's blundering management couldn't do it over some "24 players + 1" B.S.

What people outside of the Yankee's market don't understand is that the Yankees have a revenue stream that is unparralleled in sports. The have their own TV network. They have side deals with adidas (I think this was an illegal deal . Baseball tried to sue. They settled I believe). They invest back into the team. They don't pocket the profits. I respect that greatly.

Mike Eberhart | October 12, 2004
Scott, first of all, Albert Pujols wasn't going to go anywhere. If the Cardinals didn't resign him, there would have been a riot down dowtown St. Louis, and the support for their new stadium would have gone down in flames. Also, the trade for A-rod also took place after the Players Association veto'ed the trade to Boston because they didn't want Pay-rod to take a little pay cut to make the trade work. Of course the Yankees, with all the money in the world, was able to step in and cover that difference and get the trade they wanted. Plus, you know that if A-Rod became a free agent anyway, the Yankees would have been all over that and signed him.

Yes, the Rangers were a last place team because of A-rod's huge salary. Their ownership was stupid for signing him to such an insane contract in the first place. Yes, they had A-rod, but they also didn't have any pitching because of it. Getting rid of A-rod was the best thing they could do.

Anna Gregoline | October 12, 2004
How in the world can you say the Olympics are amateur sports?

I don't think you see my suggestion for what it is - people viciously defend their home team - but the team isn't from where they are from, since the players are from all over. I think it would be neat if teams had to recruit from people who were born and raised in their home town. Do I think it will happen? No, but I think it would be cool. Why are you arguing with me about that? It was just something I thought would be neat.

"Once a player is selected to play on one of our teams, we just accept them as if they have been here all along. That's the way it is."

And duh. You don't have to explain the concept to me. I was proposing a different concept.

Anthony Lewis | October 12, 2004
I love this thread. For real.

John E Gunter | October 12, 2004
My big problem with the sports corporations follows. Professional sports has stopped being a past time and turned into big business. So the kinds of problems that are being discussed in this thread will happen and will continue to happen until it stops being big business. Which mean, it will never go back to what it was.

That's part of the reason that I hate the Bucs. When the team was bought by Glazers, they wanted a new stadium. They didn't want the old stadium refurbished, they wanted a new one. But, they didn't want to pay for it, so they threatened to take the Bucs away from Tampa Bay if Tampa didn't pick up the tab.

So what happened? Tampa built them a new stadium. To be honest, I don't remember the exact details of the deal. The Glazers might have spent some of their own money to help with the construction, but the main thing that makes me mad about what happened is, the tax payers of Tampa, FL picked up the majority of the cost of building the stadium!

But, who gets all the profits? I know this isn't anything new, it's been going on for quite some time, but to me, the Glazers just stood there going "If you don't build us a new house, we'll take our dollies and go home, neener neener!"

So I have no problems with fans acting like they do compared to the way most owners act!

John

Scott Horowitz | October 12, 2004
I agree Pujols wasn't going anywhere, but you made a bold statement without any basis, so I had to disprove it. What about Miguel Tejada then? The Yanks could have tried to get him also. Have him at 2nd, Jeter at short and A-Rod at 3rd? They lost their best starting pitcher to free agency during the offseason. The point is that having the money is not the only thing, knowing how to spend it is. Most star players will not stay on small market teams, they cannot afford to pay their exuberant salaries, which are ridiculous. There are no rules against what they do. The Yankees were number 1 in fan attendance this year, they broke all their previous records. MLB wants the Yankees in the post season as much as possible. Because of the TV viewership. NY is the #1 market for baseball in the country, followed by Chicago. Baseball's ratings in the recent years have gone up from a decline in the mid 90's. The Yankees are a large part of that reason.

Mike Eberhart | October 12, 2004
If you notice, I said "this isn't amateur sports like the Olympics are supposed be". I know the Olympics aren't for amateurs anymore, but it was suppose to be. I hate the olympics, but this is for another thread.

Now back to the subject. There aren't enough good players from given areas to put a team together. If you were only allowed to recruit from certain areas, the leagues would suck and the teams would be watered down with sub-standard talent. Plus, I'm sure the teams would find a way around that rule like having the hot prospects move to the local colleges so they could be recruited. It's just not a feasible idea.

Anna Gregoline | October 12, 2004
But do you see how that is completely ridiculous? I was talking about that very thing - that people should be recruited from their towns like the original Olympics. I know how it is, I was proposing how it isn't. This thread is a perfect example of how you are very negative and quick to criticize about something that was just supposed to be a conversational item.

I NEVER SAID IT WAS FEASIBLE. I said I think it would be a lot more interesting to me.

Mike, you just never listen.

Todd Brotsch | October 12, 2004
Do you belive in MIRACLES?!?!

Mike Eberhart | October 12, 2004
Yes, the salaries are ridiculous. That's why baseball will continue to be screwed up. Until MLB institutes a salary cap, much like the NFL has, there will always be top echelon teams, and then all the rest. Why do you think the NFL is more popular right now than baseball. It's because everyone feels that there team has a chance every year because of the salary cap. It makes all the teams play on the same field and make the tough decision on who to keep and who to cut. Teams are forced to readjust every year and make great picks out of the draft, but because the Yankees don't have to worry about salary cap problems, they will always be stacked.

Problems with MLB: No salary cap, no real revenue sharing, & guaranted contracts.

Until those problems are fixed, MLB will just continue to be lopsided toward the big market teams.

Scott Horowitz | October 12, 2004
Also, on a side note, as much as it pains me to agree with MItzman, look at the world series winners for the last 2 years. Florida and Anaheim, neither team had a huge payroll (well with Guerroro (another free angent the yankees didn't get) they are now) and they both won the WS.

Scott Horowitz | October 12, 2004
The reason the NFL is extremely popular for several reasons.

The games are only on once a week.
It is a more fast paced sports.
It as a sport has more appeal to many people.


If you look at the US, the 3 most popular sports are NASCAR (which still boggles my mind), football, then baseball. It used to be hockey and basketball ahead of baseball, but baseball has more appeal now, because people are getting back into it, and the Yankees are a large part of that reason. Oh and on another side note, the Lakers in the NBA had 2 of the highest market players in the game, and went on to win 3 championships in a row (I think that's the number, never been a big basketball fan someone correct me if I am wrong) and that is in a sport with a salary cap!

Mike Eberhart | October 12, 2004
Anna, first of all, you are the one making this personal. I was just replying to your questions with an explanation. All I did was describe why it wouldn't be feasible and give some reasons on what would happen. Plus, why did you single me out on being negative. At no point did I act negative towards anybody. Other than the Yankees. I'm trying to discuss sports along with everyone else. You are the one that keeps taking jabs at my comments. And I listened to your arguements, and I replied back with my comments, but apparently I'm not allowed to do that as that's considered negative.

Anna Gregoline | October 12, 2004
I don't understand NASCAR either, but at least there's the possibility of crashes, which I'm sure lots of people like. Football, in my opinion, is really the national sport/pastime. It's a lot faster, and a lot more crushingly exciting than baseball. I think Americans tend to prefer people hitting each other instead of the mental intimidation in baseball.

Mike Eberhart | October 12, 2004
Yeah, I don't understand the whole NASCAR thing either. I can only watch cars driving in circles for so long. And for the last two world series winners, I just think that the Yankees crumbled to the pressure of having to win to these small market clubs. Everyone outside of NY was rooting for the underdog to win, I know I was.

As for Vlad, where would you have put him? You already have sheffield, Matsui, and Bernie williams. The Yanks didn't need him. I know they probably wanted him, but geesh, how much talent can you stock up on?

Anna Gregoline | October 12, 2004
I guess it's when you say things like "it's not feasible" when I already said that. It's like you're arguing with me when I didn't have a contrary opinion. Also, I was making a comment that I thought it would be cool, not actually proposing whether it would work or not, in fact I said it wouldn't work.

I guess I just didn't want to get into a whole argument about something that in my opinion would make more sense to me, and be fun, even though I know it wouldn't work.

It goes back to the money thing - if a team with enough money can buy whatever players they want - then what's the point? What's the point of this team is better than that team if they just purchased the best they could?

Scott Horowitz | October 12, 2004
Anthony, I know your pain with the Mets. I can honestly say that I am a Yankee Fan that is not a Mets hater. They had one of the highest payrolls in baseball this year, and we saw what they did. They need to get a GM who knows how to spend money.

Todd Brotsch | October 12, 2004
Well, I'm surprised it took this long....really, three days to get to the salary cap and revenue sharing...I thought it'd have been the second or third thing mentioned.

As for revenue sharing, why should we penalize excellence. Should when Jordan was in his hayday the league taken his money from shoe sales and give that to the league? I hope the generalized answer here is no...why should we take what a team makes (YES network revenue, or licensing and whatnot) as a penalty?

Every team wins 54 games, every team looses 54, it's thoes remaining 54 that really matter. Small market, and 'lesser' off money wise teams can make it all the time. Scott has already mentioned Florida and Anaheim, so I won't go into that. Montreal is a totally seprate story however. If fan's don't go to games what can you do? Without fan support it dosen't matter what sort of salary cap or revenue sharing program there is fans are what the game is about. Vlad was an Expo, now with the Angels, he didn't all of a sudden become a great player he was in Montreal there just wern't any fans of baseball there. The Twinkies were on schedual to be relocated or contracted in entirety, now where are they? Two consecutive Playoff appearances (I personally damn the Yanks coming from behind again to beat them but whatever, twinks are the parent club of my AAA Ball team) no salary cap helped them. Aggressive work in the postseason, not to mention actually USING your farm system instead of going crazy with free-agency. Which is what drives up salary prices in the first place.

Baseball has always been about the fans, all this stuff on the side, dosen't really matter.

I'm sorry for stiring the pot, if so wanted this will be my last post.

Anthony Lewis | October 12, 2004
Scott: Yeah, I saw what the Mets did.

They also took 4 of six games from the Yankees as well. :-p

Had to say it. LOL

Oh come on. I don't have much. Lemme have just this one.

Scott Horowitz | October 12, 2004
Fine, you get one freebie! Though, I think the Mets made some of the worst moves in baseball this season. Trading Kazmir for Zambrano??? What the hell were they thinking?

Jackie Mason | October 12, 2004
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Anna Gregoline | October 12, 2004
Derek Jeter was one of the most boring people on SNL ever. Did anyone see that?

Scott Horowitz | October 12, 2004
Well, he is a ball player, not an actor. The main difference between the Yankees and the other MLB teams is this. The Yanks have won 26 world championships, the next team to come close are the St. Louis Cardinals with 9 behind their belt. Baseball has been defined by the Yankees. People know names like Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Joe Dimaggio, Mickey Mantle, Yogi Berra, Reggie Jackson, and Derek Jeter. What other team in the MLB, let alone sports has a history like this?

Anna Gregoline | October 12, 2004
Sure. I was just saying he was one of the worst people on SNL.

Scott Horowitz | October 12, 2004
And I was agreeing with you.

Kris Weberg | October 12, 2004
So, no one but me thought that Dave's excusing throwing fucking batteries at soemone's head was a little insane?

I guess this is the "it's ok to turn over cars after the big game" logic, then.

Hey, in Britian, getting into massive riots that leave people dead in the streets is just PART OF SOCCER!

Scott Horowitz | October 12, 2004
Hey, the batteries were at Shea Stadium... not Yankee. They were towards John Rocker.

John E Gunter | October 12, 2004
Do you really need to ask most of us whether we find a problem with that kind of violence, Kris?

John

Kris Weberg | October 12, 2004
Apparently I need to ask Dave, yes -- to quote him:

"Throwing batteries at racist relief pitchers (if you're a New York fan) is part of the game. It's all psychological."

Hey, I despise John Rocker's racism immensely, but I don't think that means it's okay to physically assault him. As long as you're a 'fan," Dave apparently does.

Dave Mitzman | October 12, 2004
Ok first of all, do NOT take my quote out of context. You conveniently left that whole section in parentheses out.

"Throwing batteries at racist relief pitchers (if you're a New Yorker) is also part of the game. It's all psychological (except the whole physical assault part of the throwing batteries)."

Secondly, it's a freaking joke. Some New Yorkers took it upon themselves to throw batteries at John Rocker at Shea Stadium in the bullpen several years back, and this was after he made some extremely racist remarks towards the general population of the city. I never once said that it was ok to resort to physical violence. I'd appreciate not having words put in my mouth and this all out attack on me is ridiculous.

It's obvious to me that none of you know how to take a joke.

Anna Gregoline | October 13, 2004
It's obvious to me that you're not very good at making them - otherwise we wouldn't take them seriously. It's extremely hard in these instances to tell you are joking. A little help next time? You sound absolutely deadly serious. And yes, those sentences do imply that you condone physical violence against the players.

Dave Mitzman | October 13, 2004
It's obvious to me that you all take things a bit too seriously for my taking. You and Kris both need to chill out and learn to relax. Now excuse me while I go watch my Yankees beat the Red Sox.

Jackie Mason | October 13, 2004
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Todd Brotsch | October 13, 2004
...

Scott Horowitz | October 13, 2004
Yankees 1, BoSox 0

Dave Mitzman | October 13, 2004
Although in the 7th inning I almost had a heart attack, a well played game and that almost perfect game was most excellent.

Anthony Lewis | October 13, 2004
Alright. Let's try and calm this thing down a bit, because it's kinda gotten out of hand.

Yes, I said some things about Yankee fans. I meant them. In the grand scheme of things, what does it really matter? My feelings about Yankee fans doesn't stop anyone else from enjoying life or making a living. So what I said about Yankee fans is really irrelevant. On my job, all the Yankee fans laugh at me. Maybe that's the Yankee fans here should have done, and maybe this thread wouldn't have gotten this far. So don't take my Yankee fan rant seriously. I'm a bitter Mets fan.

Scott Horowitz | October 13, 2004
I guess being a Met fan now is like being a Yankee fan in 1986. I know plenty of fellow Yankee fans that act the way you say, Anthony. I also know plenty of Met fans who do. Every team has their extremists who no matter what won't listen to other people.

Anna Gregoline | October 13, 2004
Dave, I should hope that anyone who appears to condone physical violence against another person will always be taken seriously.

Todd Brotsch | October 14, 2004
Game 2, here we go!

Scott Horowitz | October 14, 2004
Yanks 2, Bosux 0

Dave Mitzman | October 14, 2004
and once again, it has been proven that the yankees do not suck. if they sucked, would they be up 2 against one of the toughest teams in the American League?

Anthony Lewis | October 14, 2004
Once again...I must rely on the National League to knock the Yankees off.

They play REAL baseball in the National League.

Oh...if I haven't said it today: The Yankees (and their fans) suck.

**tee hee**

Anthony Lewis | October 14, 2004
You know...the Red Sox suck as well. I told my partners I work with today that it was over. The series was over after the first freakin' game. No way does Boston come back. Schilling is hurt. The Yankees are in Pedro's head.

It's over.

GO ST. LOUIS!!!

Dave Mitzman | October 14, 2004
Real baseball? I'm sorry, but maybe you could educate me on how what the Yankees and Redsox play is not real baseball. They play by the same exact rules with one exception (the DH rule) and that's it. Let me double check something here....

American League uses the same bats and baseballs as the National.
American League uses the same diamond layout as the National.
American Leauge uses the same ruleset as the National except pitchers don't hit.

Yup, as far as I can tell, it's real baseball. If you're going to try and antagonize, try using a semi-valid argument. And even though I know you're kidding, it's a weak argument to even kid on.

Also, putting a "tee hee" after saying that Yankees fans sucks doesn't make it funny or any less wrong. Like I said, I never said that fans of any other sports teams suck. As I've mentioned before, there are fans of other teams that are way worse attitude-wise than Yankee fans, so give it up already. It's a tired argument.

Anthony Lewis | October 14, 2004
You are overly sensitive. I dunno. I hate to put that out there like that, but you get real prickly over things that in the grand scheme of things, don't really matter. My goodness man get a freakin' grip. You love your team. I hate them. So freakin' what?!

Damn...I say these things at work and to my friends and we all laugh together at the end. I mean, come on. Lighten up. If you KNOW I'm kidding, then let me kid. Why are you trying to rationalize my "kidding"?

I think YOU are the one that needs to "give it up".

Todd Brotsch | October 14, 2004
No such thing as same diamond lay out. Every ball park is different. You can't sit here and compare Coors Field to Fenway, or MinuteMaid Park to Yankee Stadium; that's just ass talk. Stinky Stinky ass talk.

Scott Horowitz | October 14, 2004
Yeah, Mitzman doesn't really know what he's talking about. As for real baseball, I've heard that argument many times. Personally I think either both leagues should have DHs or both leagues should have pitchers hit. The thing I like abou tthe DH rule is that it allows players to extend their careers when they can still hit without fielding.

Anthony Lewis | October 14, 2004
Well, I think Dave means that the baseline dimentions around the diamond are the same, and not the entire field. I mean I can go on all day about the short porch at Yankee Stadium. Let me also mention the Green Monster in Boston. I don't want any Yankee fans to think I'm singling their team's ballfield out. But that a valid arguement.

However, the National League game is different just because the pitcher has to hit. Does a manager take his pitcher out because a left handed batter is coming up? Does he wait until that batter is announced into the game before he makes that change...and vice versa? Does the pitcher "pitch inside" often because he doesn't have to worry about holding the bat and getting payback? Late in a game, does a manager pinch hit for his pitcher because the team is down a run, and the pitcher is usually an automatic out? Does he let that pitcher bat because he's the closer and they need him on the mound for the opposing team's half of the inning?

OR...during an interleague series, do I (as the American League manager) skip my star pitcher's spot in the rotation because we are playing in the National League park under National League rules, and my pitcher has to bat and the other team may retaliate against him for throwing at the head of the NL team's star player and throwing a jagged broken baseball bat at him in the World Series...just because that batter has a measure of success against that pitcher?

These are valid arguements about the National League over the American League. I prefer the National League style of play.

Scott Hardie | October 15, 2004
On Yankee fans sucking: I wasn't referring to all Yankee fans, of course, since we obviously have two gentlemanly Yankee fans here in this discussion. I simply don't like obnoxious braggarts; who does? It's one reason why I watch sports in my own home rather than in bars or stadiums; the excitement isn't worth the rudeness one must endure. Any fan of a winning team can be obnoxious, but in the course of my own life, I've found Yankee fans to be more obnoxious than normal, for the reasons Anthony so well explained on October 10th. Save your bad-mouthing of other teams and your king-of-the-world asshattery for private discussions with other Yankee fans; it contributes nothing to the general public discourse.

I guess I take the TC mentality beyond TC. Todd might not know it yet being the new guy, but the rest of you know that I intend this forum to be about civil discourse and mutual respect even during disagreements. It's a safe place to express your opinions and not be flamed for it, yadda yadda yadda. If I ever wondered what effect it would have for sports-fan boorishness to intermix with the polite conduct here, I have my answer. Anyway, ALL fans who act like they're hot shit because their team won can go to hell; like Anthony put it, they didn't put on a uniform and play on the field, and they are not a higher form of life.

Another reason I single out Yankee fans for this criticism when I should direct it to all obnoxious fans is the attitude of some New Yorkers that their city is the center of the universe. One night after Dave had just moved to Florida, he complained of having cravings for a good hoagie sandwich; I suggested he explore his new city and find a good deli, but he openly laughed at the possibility of there being a good deli anywhere outside of Manhattan. (I apologize for bringing up old shit and for singling you out, Dave.) This is the kind of haughty, flagrantly arrogant attitude that some New Yorkers see no problem with having. Yankee fans often seem to regard their team the way some New Yorkers implacably regard their city, as such a perfect, invulnerable entity that everything else is worthy of scorn. And again, I do not generalize; the Yankee fans and New Yorkers here in this discussion have been kind and fair, proving that I cannot mean all of their kind.

On battery-throwing: It should be clear that Dave does not condone physically harming players on other teams, especially after he fucking said so. I say this a lot, but again I have to ask you to step back and wonder, could Dave really have meant that? In his original comment, the point wasn't the harming of a player; his point was the mentality of sports fans to tear down the other team with negativity. Throwing the batteries on the field and bullpen is just a way of jeering John Rocker and trying to disrupt his mental state, the same as waving shiny signs at a basketball player trying to make a penalty shot.

On home teams not representing home: I so agree with Anna on this one. And it's not just an issue of players moving around all the time, it's a matter of teams moving around all the time. How the hell can anyone in Salt Lake City root for the Jazz when their very name is a reminder of their origin in New Orleans? For that matter, the Vancouver "Grizzlies" moving the Memphis, or the Charlotte "Hornets" moving to New Orleans? Pointless. I would have found it hilarious if the Grazers had walked and we'd seen the "Indianapolis Buccaneers" in the playoffs.

Name issues aside, I'm just mystified how someone can root for the "home" team when the owners have made that concept impossible. Even Mike's beloved Rams have only been in St. Louis for a decade; they were the Los Angeles Rams for fifty years and the Cleveland Rams before that. At least Yankee fans have nearly a century of rooting for their "home" team. :-|

Todd Brotsch | October 15, 2004
I did not mean to flame anyone. I'm sorry people didn't have their nomex suits on for my comment because I didn' t think they were neccessary. It was nothing more than a quote from a movie that I thought very appropriately fit the discourse of what was going on.

Like I said before, I apologized for my stiring of the pot.

Dave Mitzman | October 15, 2004
Scott you have said it well. I do agree there are the obnoxious fans of the sports teams and the worst can make it hard to enjoy a good game at the bar, but I look at them as part of the game, and I will make myself part of it and I have a good time. And I also appreciate you backing me on the whole physical violence thing. I mean seriously, even given the whole tone of this conversation and the post, it should be obvious that the comment in question was not meant to be taken seriously, and ANY fan of baseball should know the situation I was referring to.

Now, as for digging up the past, let's talk deli sandwhiches (sorry, I feel I must respond). In my exploration of the South Florida region (and parts of central fla when I've journeyed up there), I have yet to locate one single good deli. I've had some alright sandwhiches, but nothing compares to a New York area deli. And G-d help me I should find a good bagel down here. I'll be able to find one in about 5 weeks as the countdown to the move back north continues. The metropolitan NY area and surrounding suburbs have the traditional deli. There is no such thing down here (and I don't count Schlotzky's or Ben's Deli's as a traditional deli). They do exist outside New York, no question, but as for non-urban areas, you probably won't find them.

Kris Weberg | October 15, 2004
My apologies to Dave for offensively misconstruing his comments on violence.

And I haven't fond a good deli in North Carolina, either, but then, I'm not too surprised :)

Dave Mitzman | October 15, 2004
Apologies accepted. Now this Doctor will go about his evilness per plan.

The only place down here I've found that's been even close to a deli is Toojays. Very good food but just not the same.

Scott Hardie | October 15, 2004
Well, there are always some isolated cases that support the stereotype. I once heard some anti-Semitism defended on the grounds that the Jews the speaker knew were penny-pinching tightwads. I bristled at hearing it and I strongly disapprove of the stereotype, but I understood the connection in this case, because I knew those same Jews, and damn it, those guys were penny-pinching tightwads. :-) So I can't blame you for saying that the sandwich shops you've tried in south Florida don't compare to the ones in New York; at least you've tried them and can say for sure. Some people never leave New York and insist that their cuisine and their culture are the best in the world, and it irks me. (Hey, a lot of Americans say it about our national culture, as if they've seen many foreign films or traveled to foreign cities.)

Scott Hardie | October 15, 2004
Toojays is all right. You gotta go local, to a mom-n-pop deli. Have a sandwich made by hand by the owner, who really cares about your experience, rather than some working stiff who assembles the factory-line ingredients. But I just don't like chain restaurants in general; they're just so impersonal.

(And since this will be my last comment for at least another day, I'd like to express hope that my example of anti-Semitism above is meant to be funny only in an ironic way, not in a mean-spirited way. I don't want to come back here tomorrow and see a dozen comments arguing about whether anti-Semitism is justified or unjustified, because that's totally not my fucking point, and we're all smart enough to realize that.)

John E Gunter | October 15, 2004
That's ok Scott, actually, upstate New York, Rochester to be exact is the center of the universe! But I'll let that oversight go this time. ;-)

John

Scott Horowitz | October 15, 2004
Geeze, I take anything anybody says about me with a grain of salt. I also sometimes try to antagonize people, because it is fun. I don't mean any of the offensive comments I say, but have fun saying it.

And as for NY being the center of the universe, we are. SO FUCK EVERYONE ELSE. I've been to many cities across the country. No one has the feel of NY. The theatre district is amazing. As much as I hate Times Square (because tourists piss me off), there is nothing like it in any other city. The nightlife is unparalleled.

The one thing I will say about the New York mentality is that we do everything at a quicker pace. I went to school in PA and used to get so frustrated about how slow everything was done. From waiting in line to get food to talking to people. This is the biggest reason I could never move to the south.

NOW, QUIT COMPLAINING ABOUT NEW YORK BECAUSE NOW MATTER HOW MUCH YOU DO REMEMBER ONE THING.... YOUR CITY SUCKS!

Anna Gregoline | October 15, 2004
I don't think that any major city has the feel of any other major city. Chicago doesn't feel like anywhere else - but I don't claim it to be the best in the world because that's just an opinion. Depends what you want in a city.

Lori Lancaster | October 15, 2004
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John E Gunter | October 15, 2004
No, it's an atmosphere that TC has taken as of late, much to Scott's disappointment. That's partly why I don't post as much on it either. I still try to get my view across, but am less likely to kid about things as people continue to take things the wrong way.

I'm not going to point anyone out, but I don't think it's just about it being baseball. Mostly what I try to do now when I post is show that not everyone follows a certain kind of behavior and generalizing about things groups everyone into a 'wrong' behavior, even though not everyone acts that way.

Myself included, being a Yankee fan. I don't make some kind of a big stink about the Yankee's doing well or bad. That is unless someone eggs me on in the first place, but it takes quite a bit of egging before I'll make a stink about it. Though I'm not to far beyond making a small, smart-alecky comment about the center of the universe. :-D

John

Lori Lancaster | October 15, 2004
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Scott Horowitz | October 15, 2004
I just got to say this. Anything said on this board to me, I do not take personally. I've read a few comments on here thinking that certain people are douches (I just love that word for some reason), but they are entitled to their opinion. Any antagonistic comment I have made is purely in jest, as I feel other people's comments are. Like me saying "your city sucks." Well it may be true depending on where you live, I do not mean it. I love San Francisco, Las Vegas, London, and Jerusalem. I was just playing the "stereotypical New Yorker" because it's funny. Well at least I do, if you don't find it funny then Fuck you (again kidding).

Though, if any member of this board tried running for political office, I think the entire board would serve to hurt their campaign. :)

Game 3 tonight. Go Yankees!

Scott Horowitz | October 15, 2004
Some folks like to get away, take a holiday from the neighborhood
Hop a flight to miami beach or hollywood.
I’m taking a greyhound on the hudson river line-
I’m in a new york state of mind.

I seen all the movie stars in their fancy cars and their limousines,
Been high in the rockies under the evergreens,
But I know what I’m needing and I don’t want to waste more time-
I’m in a new york state of mind.

It was so easy living day by day
Out of touch with the rhythm and the blues,
But now I need a little give and take,
The new york times, the daily news...

It comes down to reality-and it’s fine with me ’cause I’ve let it slide,
Don’t care if it’s chinatown or riverside,
I don’t have any reasons, I’ve left them all behind-
I’m in a new york state of mind.

It was so easy living day by day
Out of touch with the rhythm and the blues,
But now I need a little give and take,
The new york times, the daily news...

I’m just taking a greyhound on the hudson river line-
’cause I’m in a new york state of mind.

New York State of Mind by Billy Joel

Anna Gregoline | October 15, 2004
Salamanca sounds beautiful, Lori. Very picturesque.

I'm sorry for saying I hate Yankee fans. What I should have said originally was that I purely hate the cocky, meant-to-rile you attitude that many fans of any sport or team have. I think I clarified the rest of my points ok discussing that topic. I guess I'm still not watching my words closely enough, nor am I having enough common sense not to get involved with baseball!

Sports aside, I will never understand anyone who "baits" anyone else to make them mad. I don't understand why people would want to anger someone else or tease them until it hurts their feelings enough that they feel they have to defend themselves. It reminds me of children poking dogs until the dogs snap at them.

Lori Lancaster | October 15, 2004
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Lori Lancaster | October 15, 2004
[hidden by author request]

Anna Gregoline | October 15, 2004
No, I know you weren't, there was ugliness all around here - what you said prompted me to go back and I was red-faced when I realized I DID say I hated Yankee fans. Gotta think more when I open my big mouth (type things).

John E Gunter | October 15, 2004
Well, Scott is becoming a little more laid back by hanging around with a mutual friend and myself. Don't know if it's a good thing or not, but he's also kidding a little bit more. Guess you guys who have known him longer, will have to determine if it's a good thing or not.

But I do know that kidding can be carried to far sometimes, and that people, especially when reading comments over the internet can view things other than the way the comments were intended. That's why when I'm jesting about something, I usually put a smilie nearby.

But I try not to be offended by most of what's posted here. If I feel I'm going to get into an arguement with someone on a discussion board, I usually don't post. That's the easiest way to handle it. Or, I'll post what I think and then unless I really feel the need to explain my post more, I just don't respond.

That's not to say that I haven't been abusive to other people in the past, but I try not to start the fight. But depending on the board, will depend on how involved in the fight I get. As of yet, I have never been banned from a board, so I must be doing something right! :-)

John

Scott Hardie | October 16, 2004
I wouldn't say you and John are making me more laid back -- I give the credit to Matt Preston for getting me to lose that stick I had up my ass for the first few years of college, and I've been lazy and soft ever since -- but I would say you guys have made me more of a kidder. And maybe this is some of that residual uptightness, but I don't like being a kidder. It's mean-spirited. I love you guys, so it hurts me to realize I've just made fun of you. I want to be optimistic and friendly, not the kind of dick who makes his friends the butt of jokes. It's a trend I'm going to try to reverse. You two may continue with your behavior if you'd like. ;-)

Scott Horowitz | October 17, 2004
Well, getting back to the Yankees 3-0 after a devastating win against the BoSox. Doesn't seem like a team that sucks to me.... Breaking several LCS records.

Dave Mitzman | October 17, 2004
Absolutely. I can't help but agree with Horowitz (as much as I hate to agree with The Ho). Yet the Yankees are 27 outs away from a chance to play in the World Series.
I just want to note that Fenway was near empty by the middle of the 8th inning. What's up with that? I don't care if your team is down by 40 runs, you should be staying till the bitter end. I know I would stay. Speaking of which, hey Ho, remember when we went to that PSU vs OSU game and we stayed till the very end?

Anthony Lewis | October 17, 2004
I dunno Dave. If I were a Boston fan, I likely would have left too. I went to a the last few NY Giants home games last year (when they sucked...Damn, there's that word again). I usually stayed until the clock read 0:00. The last game of the season, the Giants actually tried to make a game of. But my friend and I got a call from the parking lot that there were only a few hamburgers left.

We left, of course.

Oh, and the Yankees will fall to St. Louis. Just want to get that on record.

Scott Horowitz | October 18, 2004
If St. Louis can get passed Houston......

Todd Brotsch | October 18, 2004
Tied up the series....I like their chances. Wish I could say the same for the Sox. I thought this could have been their year.

Kris Weberg | October 18, 2004
jaysis. 11 innings.

Jackie Mason | October 19, 2004
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Kris Weberg | October 19, 2004
13 innings, too. This is so far an amazingly hard-fought series. Some incredible baseball being played by both teams, really.

Amy Austin | October 19, 2004
Oh my God. (apologies for "taking the Lord's name in vain")

I finally read your Yankee saga, and now I am exhausted. The whole time, I could only hear one thing in my head:

"Crying...???!!! There's no crying in baseball!"

Todd Brotsch | October 20, 2004
AMEN!!!

Anthony Lewis | October 20, 2004
You see. Not only do the Yankees suck, but they cheat too.

A-Rod swats the ball out of Bronson Arroyo's hand, and tries to act all innocent. They'll be crying all the way to the commissioner's office.

That's another thing I don't like about the Yankees. If something happens that goes against them...it's a dirty play. But if something goes in their favor....it's just "good baseball".

Well, I say SCREW EM!!!

Kris Weberg | October 20, 2004
Thank god I'm a fan of the Cubs, a team for whom -- prior to the last few years, at least -- triumphalism is not an issue. Plus, the season ends faster for me, so I can get back to more important things like organizing my collection of late modern critical theory, and reading about modern pandemics.

Anthony Lewis | October 20, 2004
Now they have cops on the field with riot gear.

You see what I mean about Yankee fans? I didn't lie.

Amy Austin | October 20, 2004
"I hate the Braves. Why? Present me with a good reason to like them."

"I think the New York (Yankee) fans have a right to display a bit of cockyness. If your team performed as well as them I'm sure you'd be acting the same way. No one argues about Atlanta fans, the way they act, even though they too have had an amazing team through the last few decades..."

I just wanted to take this opportunity to point out that the Braves fans maintained their crappy, unruly FANATICAL behavior even through the tough times, when their team and their game SUCKED... in my mind, this is a reason to appreciate -- they are EQUAL OPPORTUNITY OFFENDERS, rather than fair-weather fans!!!

"Crying...???!!! There's no crying in baseball!"

Dave Mitzman | October 20, 2004
Anthony,
The mets threw batteries at john rocker. you have nothing to say.

Anthony Lewis | October 20, 2004
I got this to say:

GAME 7!!!

Throwing batteries is stupid.

And so is throwing baseballs onto the field. Why do you Yankee fans feel the rules don't apply to you? This is EXACTLY what I mean about Yankee fans! You guys BLOW GOATS!

And please don't take this as a personal attack. I didn't say "Dave______"

Kris Weberg | October 20, 2004
That was the shortest peace on record.

Dave Mitzman | October 20, 2004
Ok, I'm going to say this now: I'm sick of this attack on fucking yankee fans. Give it a fucking rest already. I didn't say throwing baseballs on the field is ok, I didn't say the rules don't apply to the yankees. This discussion has gone way beyond friendly internet chatter a long time ago and now you're just instigating it. Leave it the fuck alone.


P.S. I take it personally because I am a Yankee fan. I'm sure you wouldn't like it if I said "all mets fans should up and die right now because they're all a waste of life"

Anthony Lewis | October 20, 2004
" I didn't say throwing baseballs on the field is ok, I didn't say the rules don't apply to the yankees."

Well, maybe you SHOULD have said it isn't OK. And maybe you SHOULD have said the rules apply to the Yankees. But you didn't.

Yankee Kool-Aid sure must taste good.

And that sounds like something a Yankee fan WOULD say to a Met fans. Or a fan of any team for that matter. I wouldn't take it personally if you did say it to me, because my response would be...

"Typical Yankee fan".

Scott Hardie | October 20, 2004
Guys: Cool it.

Anthony Lewis | October 20, 2004
I'm cool Scott. I'm always cool.

Dave Mitzman | October 20, 2004
Scott,
I've tried to cool it, but then we get certain people on here who come back to purposly instigate an argument.

Anthony,
I didn't say that because I don't feel a need to say that violence isn't ok and that the rules apply to everyone. Jeez, get a clue. Ok so the yankees get their fair share of calls, but look at the game tonight, they were definitely ruled against more often than not.

Anthony Lewis | October 20, 2004
Whatever man.

Whatever.

Kris Weberg | October 20, 2004
And people wonmder why he still have wars. Most of us here are, in theory, friends or friends-of-friends, and we can't even remain civil when we disagree about FUCKING BASEBALL.

I don't care how good, or bad, or fair, or dirty, or rich, or poor, or whatever your team is. It's really exciting, and being into your team is great, but y'know what, it's probably not worth screaming insults and accusations at each other.

The Yankees won! The BoSox won! Great, but you still have the same life you did before they won -- same joys, same problems, same jobs, same hobbies. Outside of feeling good about your team, your life will be, on the whole, exactly the damn same. Get unruly about it, and you might not have the same friends, though.

Hey, I'd like to believe that if the Cubs won the Series, an angelic choir would descend, and take all of us long-suffering (Northside) Chicago fans to Paradise in return for our decades of baseball amrtyrdom, but y'know what? I'd probably just get really, really, drunk, wake up with a serious hangover and a Cubs symbol tattooed on me somewhere, shake my head, and get back to my normal life. Except now with a tattoo.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is, this isn't that goddamn important int he scheme of things, and it sure wasn't worth the stupid excesses we all went to in this thread, and seem to be going back to right now. And also, I'm saying, think before you get a tattoo, for heaven's sake.

Anthony Lewis | October 20, 2004
Kris, what you say is not lost on me. I tried to make that point further up in the thread. I actually used your words. But some people are sensitive. I don't know why.

Dave Mitzman | October 20, 2004
My life will go on the same, Yankees win or lose. I won't argue that fact. What I'm sick of here is the direct attack on Yankee fans. Great the sox won. Whoop-dee-freakin-doo for them. However, it doesn't help situations when someone comes out and says that Yankees fans blow goats. If that's not asking for verbal retaliation, what is? I get less and less worried about offending people on here now when I see the general attitude. All I did was start a thread expressing my joy that the Yankees won a single game against the Twins, and now it's a huge posting that became an attack on the Yankees fans. I don't understand it and at this point it's fucking pathetic. So far, as a Yankee fan, I haven't said that any group of fans of any other teams have sucked, yet quite a few have said that my team and the fans of choice sucked. Gee, I wonder who's being more civilized here?

Dave Mitzman | October 20, 2004
The reason I'm sensitive is because this has essentially become an attack on me and a group I'm part of. I tried to give up on this discussion a while back but you can't stop the fucking antagonization can you? Are you really that immature that you need to keep this thing going?

James Chiappone | October 20, 2004
Right...so I'm reading all this trash that's been written and you must be the most uninformed ignorant pieces of junk ever, at least as far as baseball goes. Holy God...let me just clarify a couple things here, and I assure you, I'm not looking for any replies:

1. Mets = where good baseball players go to die.
2. Red Sox = Postseason failures
a) Blockbuster Trade failures
b) Just as bad as the Yankees when it comes to buying their team
3. More players on the Yankees roster have come up through their farm system than any other team currently in the playoffs.
4. I hope the Yankees win it all so more people in Boston develop drinking problems and beat their wives when "Enter Sandman "comes on the radio.

-Thanks a million-

Anthony Lewis | October 20, 2004
James...welcome to the board.

See...I didn't take that personally. Life goes on.

However, someone might take offense at that "beat their wives" comment.

James Chiappone | October 20, 2004
Good.

Steve Dunn | October 20, 2004
First, yes, you must always think before you get a tattoo. That's solid advice.

Second, I applaud all parties for their passion. Life is short and inconsequential. The highs and lows are the grist of experience, and as we lie on our deathbeds, the experiences of our lives are all that matter. Our philosophies and good works exist for others, but baseball exists for us.

Third, I am a Red Sox fans, so tonight was wonderful for me. I was disturbed by the specter of riot police on the field, but I am pleased the umps got together and made the right calls. I do not judge Yankees fans harshly because I am a Duke basketball fan. We might all agree that Duke is the Yankees of college basketball. I know how it is. Everyone hates your fans, but they're all punk-ass bitches, so who cares? This is not to say I do not hate the Yankees, for verily - verily I say - I do. I hate them for all the same reasons everyone hates Duke basketball - because they win all the time and they're really smarmy about it. Kris, by the way, I was at Wrigley a couple weeks ago when the Cubs mathematically eliminated themselves from the playoffs by losing their hundredth game in a row. The Cubs are my second favorite MLB team. In case you're still reading, I like good basketball and mediocre baseball. I am a Carolina Panthers fan, so I like bad football with occasional fluke moments of glory. But I digress.

I can see all sides of this issue.

Regarding the game, I'm happy about it, obviously. To some extent perhaps the Red Sox were only prolonging our agony, delaying the inevitable and such. On the other hand, they made history tonight, and who's to say they can't do it again tomorrow? I like the Sox's pitching situation, anyway. It'll be a hell of a game, that's for sure.

Finally, and perhaps this is the most important thing, I am coming to New York for the last weekend of October. I am staying in my buddy's place at 230 West 56th Street at Broadway, or here:

http://www.wirednewyork.com/skyscrapers/random_house/default.htm

My wife and I are landing at LGA at 10:00. There is a Hooters right down the street from my buddy's apartment. It's at 211 West 56th Street.

http://hooters.know-where.com/hooters/cgi/site?site=195&address=

On Thursday night, October 29, beginning around 11:00 p.m. (whenever I can get there) I will be eating wings and drinking beer at that Hooters. Any Goo Gamer who shows up gets beer and wings on me. Anthony and Dave - I'm looking at you because I think you might live in the area, but the offer is wide open to anyone else who happens to read these words and feels like enjoying some free wings and the beverage of your choice at the 56th Street Hooters on Thursday, October 29.

Post if you're interested and we'll work out the details. It will not hurt my feelings at all if no one is interested, or everyone is busy, or whatever. No one here knows me, and there is no reason to believe you would like me if you met me... though of course that uncertainty is offset somewhat by the guarantee of free wings and beer (or the beverage of your choice).

By the way, I choose Hooters not because I am a misogynist or a cad. While I am an ardent heterosexual, I am also married. Fortunately, Kelli likes the wings. I choose Hooters only because I've never been to my friend's apartment before, and HE'S a huge fan of Hooters. The only reason I know there is a Hooters near his apartment is because he told me this in the emails he sent me describing the place. He will not be there that night, because he lives full time in Taiwan.

Thus, if you might otherwise be inclined to accept this offer of free wings and beverages, but might hold back because of some particular distaste for Hooters or concern about what my selection of the restaurant might represent about me, please consider coming anyway, with full assurance that my foocus will be on wings, beverages and conversation, with only occasional furtive glances at the Hooters girls under the watchful gaze of my wife (who is quite charming in her own right).

Anthony Lewis | October 20, 2004
Ah...I know where that Hooters is.

I MIGHT be able to make it. I don't usually make plans in advance on a weeknight. I'm usually getting off work at that time, and anything can happen with those damn subway trains.

And who doesn't love H ( . ) ( . ) TERS??

Steve Dunn | October 20, 2004
Yer makin' plans now, subway man. Drive that train to 56th street and let's do this thing. I got no love for your Mets, but at least we can make fun of the Yankees (kindly and gently, if Dave comes or there are other large, boisterous Yankees fans around).

You're someone I'd like to meet in person. If you're available, bring it.

Anthony Lewis | October 20, 2004
And I must say that the Cubs fans I sat amongst a few years ago at Wrigley (The Bleacher Bums), were great people. They understood that I was an "obnoxious New Yorker", and they let me be "me " (I rooted for the visiting team, BTW).

The only rule they insisted I follow was NOT to use my cellphone during the game. I respected that.

And so many beautiful women at the game as well. I was shocked!!!

ChiTown. Wonderful.

Dave Mitzman | October 20, 2004
I wish I could be there Steve. Unfortunately I've been on a 2 year hiatus to South Florida. My triumphant return to NY starts Nov 11th, so I'll be missing this by a few weeks. Maybe next time though, I appreciate the invite.

Scott Hardie | October 20, 2004
Have fun, fellas. Any site users who happen to be in Sarasota any time, drinks are on me. ;-)

I tire of the role of "manners cop" around here, but James doesn't know it and at least one site regular seems to have forgotten it: This site is a respectful forum. Insults and flames are not welcome, and it has become clear that we should not even kid each other, because most of the time the kidding is taken literally. So I ask you all again, please, cool it and stop insulting one another. One more rude statement and I swear I'll lock out further comments in this discussion, something I have never been forced to do before. Don't be the author who breaks TC.

Amy Austin | October 20, 2004
That IS a tasty burger!

Does this mean that everyone has kissed and made up? Lord knows that if I could afford cross-country airfare just to be bought some tasty beverage and wings -- I WOULD!!!

And I wish I could at least get down to the homestate to show Dave some love... there's nothing wrong with being a fan, and even though the Yanks aren't my team (baseball isn't even my sport), I do know how much it sucks when your team loses. I am a UF Gator from the days of Spurrier & Wuerffel (okay... a little bit before that, actually), and I thought it would last a lot longer than it did.

(sigh) Well, there's always basketball... and DUKE SUCKS!

(Actually, I hate basketball, but I just wanted to say that for Steve's benefit -- esp since I can't make it for the tasty beverage...;>)

Anthony Lewis | October 20, 2004
One good thing about this thread....

I padded my stats. I will soon be in the top ten of TC authors. I couldn't have said that a few days ago.

Amy Austin | October 20, 2004
D'OH! I was writing while you were, Scott -- I swear!

I KID! I KID! I KID!!! Please don't kill me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now I have two places that I'm missing out on tasty beverage!!!

Amy Austin | October 20, 2004
I sure hope that Steve & Scott know that I KID!

Scott Hardie | October 20, 2004
I know that you kid. I think Steve knows it too. Your comment is fine; you were typing when I posted mine.I hate playing the referee around here partly because what it represents for the site, and partly because I'm just tired of it, but mostly because it distracts. I wouldn't even be posting anything in this discussion if not for a need to keep the peace; I'd be letting you folks get on with it. Well, maybe I'd still offer drinks to anyone visiting Sarasota. Yeah. Anyway, spending most of my time in the forum reminding everyone how the forum is supposed to be is pointless to me; it's like those blogs in which most of the entries are about the blog itself (layout, status, etc). It's a waste of time. But, enough about TC in general. If we can discuss sports fandom peacefully, then please, let's continue.About the top TC authors: Where the heck is Melissa Erin, anyway?

Kris Weberg | October 20, 2004
I go to Duke, but I have no intention of seeing a basketball game anytime soon. Some of those fans scare me, even if we'd be rooting for the same side.

Amy Austin | October 20, 2004
I was wondering where in Carolina you were, Kris! We're on our way out to Camp LeJeune real soon -- I'm heading out early (right before Thanksgiving) to find us housing, and hubs will follow in February (he's in some advanced training here -- our only reason for being out here).

We'll be nearer to my family there, too -- they are near the NC/VA border.

Isn't it way past your bedtimes??? ;D

(Not mine yet, but it would be if I were on your coast! And hubs wants on here before bed, too -- just came home from an 18-hour day at school... it's "Hell Week" for him... good night!)

Scott Horowitz | October 20, 2004
I've been trying to stay out of this conversation for a few days, but alas, I find myself drawn back in. I am a lifelong Yankee fan, I rooted for them when they sucked in the late 80's and early 90's. I try to watch as many games as possible. And the Post Season is extremely nerve racking. As for what happened at the stadium last night with the fans, it is no different than in the 1999 Playoffs when the Red Sox fans felt some calls were unjustified and displayed their disatisfaction with the umpires.
I don't know what else I want to say, so comment along and I'll repost.

Anna Gregoline | October 20, 2004
Anthony - ChiTown IS awesome! Rock!

Scott - Melissa told me she is avoiding TC until after the election, because she was tired of all the political discussion, and I don't blame her exactly, because she's voting for Bush. Which makes me want to cry because she's so much smarter than that, but whatever. She's the one I'm most sad about.

But she'll be back, she promised.

Todd Brotsch | October 20, 2004
This is the best board ever!!

Steve Dunn | October 20, 2004
Such a strange juxtasposition... "this is a respectful forum" with "she's too smart to vote for Bush." Oh well. It's really best for everyone that I don't come here for my politics fix. Y'all feel free to come by beggingtodiffer.com for that sort of commentary. We have a few smart liberals and a few conservatives such as myself (which, if I am to understand Anna correctly, means I am by definition a dumbass). I invite you to read it and decide for yourself.

Kris - you're a Dukie! Right on, man. I am friends with several of those fans who freak you out. I understand you're not much of a sports fan, but let me know if you're a fan of appetizers and adult beverages. I come through Durham from time to time and would be glad to make your acquaintance. (Be forewarned - I am a dumbass).

Amy Austin | October 20, 2004
Oh, I dont' know, Steve --

You seem like a smartass to me... I'd be happy to talk sports, politics, humor, trash, whatever with you any day!

Anna Gregoline | October 20, 2004
I was being respectful - What's wrong with thinking that my friend is too smart to vote for Bush? I wasn't slamming anyone on here. She's a very smart, intelligent, wonderful, beautiful gal.

I just think that she and other people who vote for Bush must either be very focused on certain issues above others that I deem important (which is valid) and/or she doesn't pay enough attention/doesn't believe/put stock in all the dirty truths about Bush and Co. Or, they like war. In my opinion, I'm surprised that she is going to vote Bush. Just from knowing her, I would have guessed she was Democrat, if I didn't know from ages upon ages ago she was Republican.

I don't know anyone's motives anymore, because honestly, I'm at the end of my rope. I have no freaking clue how anyone can vote for Bush. I truly think it's a vote condoning evil.

But that's my opinion. And I know I won't change anyone's mind anymore, and someone else's opinion is valid too, just like their vote. I don't hate her for voting Bush, nor do I hate anyone on here for doing so either. I don't like it, but it's not my decision to make, it's yours.

Not sure how any of that is disrespectful.

Amy Austin | October 20, 2004
Personally, I have never voted for a Republican OR a Democrat. I have only voted in 2 of the last 4 elections (the first 2, not the last), and I won't be voting this time, either.

Yeah, it's great that we have the right to *choose* our leader -- something that people are dying and killing each other for in other parts of the world -- but is it *really* a choice if you don't want one of two major parties' candidates? I don't think so. It seems that it will be a LONG time yet before anyone in this country wakes up and realizes that there are other options. Another example of the power of the dollar.

Amy Austin | October 20, 2004
If you really want to "throw your vote away", make it count.
Click here:

VOTE LIBERTARIAN!

Anna Gregoline | October 20, 2004
I'm not sure there really are other valid options for people right now. In part, because the system is so screwed up with the electoral college, etc. and in part because we do only have two main choices. Things need to change, but I'm not holding my breath for them to. In the meantime, I'm going to vote, even though Illinois is solidly Democratic because I want my voice in that popular vote. Even if Kerry loses, I want my vote to be among the millions that will say, NO to what Bush and Co. stand for.

Amy Austin | October 20, 2004
And that's why nothing will change.

Anna Gregoline | October 20, 2004
Well, if Kerry is in office, a lot will change. And that's what I'm holding onto.

Scott Horowitz | October 20, 2004
I hate this shit when people say "my vote doesn't count". What if every Democrat in Illinois felt that way, and didn't vote, and it went Republican. If the 2000 election taught us anything, it is that every vote counts. People who do not vote have no right to complain about the country. The electoral college makes sense, even if it has its flaws. Imagine a valid 3rd party candidate, if you went by a purely popular vote. Candidate #1 receives 40%, Candidate #2 receives 35%, and Candidate #3 receives 20%. If this is the way it is done, you need the candidate to win 51% of the vote. The electoral college helps with that issue. The other is that the electoral college gives the power to states even in terms of a Federal Election.

Amy Austin | October 20, 2004
Translation:
You should vote for Bush or Kerry.

What the hell does "valid 3rd party candidate" mean anyway?

Anna Gregoline | October 20, 2004
I think he means one that is on the ticket, one that everyone knows about, and one that is included in things like the debates. Am I right?

Scott Horowitz | October 20, 2004
Yeah, kinda like Perot several years ago.

Scott Horowitz | October 20, 2004
Also, need to add how we got from Yankees to voting.... weird how things turn.

Todd Brotsch | October 20, 2004
Hardie, I hope you're archiving this thread....

Todd Brotsch | October 20, 2004
Third party canidate is a total waste of any vote you have. I'm sorry to say, but it is.

Amy Austin | October 20, 2004
Just because your party's candidate isn't in the debates *doesn't* mean he isn't on the ticket -- it isn't like the Libertarian candidate is a write-in... believe me, HE IS ON THE TICKET!

The only reason that Perot was able to be the force that he was in the '92 election was because of his independent wealth. Do you know how much it costs to run for Pres? He was willing to spend millions of his own money in order to make a change, and in retrospect, I wish I would have voted for him instead of Marrou (the Libertarian)... just to install a third party candidate.

Amy Austin | October 20, 2004
And again I say that this is why nothing will change. You only think it's a waste because you don't know what your other options are.

Anna Gregoline | October 20, 2004
Why are you yelling at us? I posted what I thought were important things to have happen for a third party candidate - that they are on the ticket, that everyone knows who they are (sorry, but I doubt that none but a very few know their choices beyond Bush and Kerry) and that they are included in the main debates. Until those things happen, we won't see third party candidates as main contenders.

And I have to agree - in this election, you're throwing your vote away on a third party candidate. Is that your right? Of course.

Todd Brotsch | October 20, 2004
Allow me to explain my thoughts. I do know the canidates, Nader is a great man his issues are true and pure, my problem is this. If he were elected into the White House he wouldn't be able to get anything done. Just like the Body in MINN. With no support in the house, on either side, no bills get passed nothing gets done. No third, fourth, or fifth party canidate will be able to get that done.


Maybe that's just the cynic in me....



Love the way this thread is going. Go Houston!

Amy Austin | October 20, 2004
I wasn't yelling -- just trying to emphasize that there are, indeed, other names on the ticket besides "Bush" & "Kerry"... are they "household names"? Obviously not. But I think that Americans are doing themselves a grave disservice to pick one of only two names, just because it's one that they've heard of -- that's like only buying Tide or Cheer to do your laundry because you think the store brand can't cut it. Those detergents are a household name because of their advertising/marketing/packaging -- and they cost more for it, too. The smart consumer will want to spend less on the product that they know to be just as good. How do they know? They look at the contents and decide whether or not to buy it.

The smart voter will actively look at more than what theTV commercials/debates present them with and decide whether they want the best product or just the one that everyone knows about. But most people are too lazy for that -- or maybe they just want their clothes to smell like Tide.

Amy Austin | October 20, 2004
Okay, but how many people can name another third candidate besides Nader -- without looking it up? (And I don't care if you cheat, either -- because at least you'll be looking for one!)

James Chiappone | October 20, 2004
It's a 2 party system, the American people are ignorant to this. Both parties believe in essentially the same things (i.e. Less crime, hard on drugs, more money for education). Voting for a 3rd party is only a "wasted vote" when people think it is. It's pure ignorance and it's unnerving to think people believe drivel like that. It's only a wasted vote because everyone is convinced it is, hence forth, America will be run by puppets until there is a change. Punk Rock has taught me so much.

Todd Brotsch | October 20, 2004
Communists

Amy Austin | October 20, 2004
AMEN, my anarchist brother! (James, not Todd -- Todd, you're the beer-drinking brother... ;>)

(BTW, LOVE your pic -- and I get excited to see it on the "current" page, because just looking at it makes me feel that something thoroughly rude/hilariou/subversive will come out!)

Amy Austin | October 20, 2004
NOT a communist -- go look it up!

Amy Austin | October 20, 2004
And Anna, if you take the time to read Badnarik's stance on the war in Iraq, you might just find yourself wanting to vote Libertarian, too.

Todd Brotsch | October 20, 2004
let's see...we have peroutka, badnarik, cobb, harris, brown and nader

Amy Austin | October 20, 2004
Wow! Just look at
all those names
, will ya'!!!

Wouldn't it be GREAT if the debates were run like football playoffs... and we actually got to see what they ALL think???

I must have been asleep for a second there... I was definitely dreaming...

Todd Brotsch | October 20, 2004
Yeah, thoes were just the guys on the Florida ballot. I can't do much about the other people.

Amy Austin | October 20, 2004
Well, at least you looked -- props for that, man!!!

Steve Dunn | October 20, 2004
Amy - I've voted for many, many Libertarian candidates, including Harry Browne in the last two presidential elections. I'll still vote for Libertarians for local office, but I can't vote for Badnarik. He's a bona fide weirdo, and the only reason he got the party's nomination is because there was a bitter dispute between the two "real" candidates at the convention. They split their delegate votes, and hated each other so much that each refused to vote for the other guy in the runoffs. Badnarik entered the convention a distant third, and left the nominee.

Interestingly, the Libertarian Party has actual real conventions that actually really matter, but that's another discussion.

I have reluctantly concluded, however, that there is truth to the idea that voting for a third party candidate is a "wasted" vote - depending on what you mean by that term. This much is certain - there will always be two parties in the USA - and only two parties. They will not always be the SAME two parties, but there will never be three or four. This is a natural product of the way we count votes and elect our representatives (it's called "first past the post single member district voting" and it creates powerful incentives for only two major parties to form).

As James noted, this means the two major parties will always resemble each other very closely. People's opinions on this differ, but I happen to think it is wonderful - it steers our national ship along a straight path down the center and marginalizes extremist views on the left and right. It is, in my view, the most important key to the longevity and stability of our constitutional republic. I wrote a bit more on this subject (specifically as it relates to libertarianism) here:

http://www.beggingtodiffer.com/archives/2003_09.html#000509

Anna - we have different definitions of "respectful." I do not consider it respectful to assert that your political opponents are dumb, misinformed, and/or evil. I feel that way in no small part because I think it is self-evident that the Republicans and Democrats are very nearly identical in their tactics and aims. In America, we root for political parties like we root for sports teams.

(You like how I tied it all together with the sports team analogy, you know, staying on topic foor the thread?)

Steve Dunn | October 20, 2004
One more unrelated note. Some of y'all need to submit pictures! Those question mark icons are bothersome.

Amy Austin | October 20, 2004
Oh -- and in case anyone is wondering how this is still related to the thread... I think it's quite apparent, but if not:

(And please, Dave... don't get pissed off -- I know it was just your celebration that started it!)

The franchise that is the Yankees, along with the Red Sox et al, are so powerful as to exclude almost all other team discussion... just like the candidates for Pres!

When I think of the question: "Who you votin' for -- Bush or Kerry?" it reminds me of all the people watching the Yankees/Sox game at home -- a lot of fans, yes, but a lot of just watchers, too. And the importance of the game is the reason they're watching... not so much because it's a baseball game, but because it THE YANKS/SOX GAME! Any interest in the other teams/games is completely overshadowed by the prominence of THIS GAME, and the question then becomes, "Who you rootin' for -- Boston or NY?"

Amazing how alike sports and politics, no?

Amy Austin | October 20, 2004
Heeeeyyyy...

Damn it, Steve -- you beat me to the same train of thought!!!

(Oh, and BTW, Scott has had my pic for days, but I just figured I'd let him put it up when it suited him, with his remodeling efforts -- bug him, if you want it that bad! ;>)

Amy Austin | October 20, 2004
I voted for Browne, too.

Amy Austin | October 20, 2004
I admit, Steve -- I'm not as hep on the politics as I was in college, and so do not know as much about Badnarik as I ought... but I still push him as food for thought & change, as well as a way of "wasting the vote".

BTW, when I speak of "wasting my vote", I am talking about still maintaining a voting presence, with the intent of changing the status quo but also knowing that it will not really "count" except to add my voice to the numbers of those who want a *real* change. If enough people did this, then something might actually happen, but I've become very apolitical in the last five years... don't know, but perhaps being in the service had a lot to do with it. It's tough when you're actually dealing with your "boss" -- the expression "My heart is on the left, but my wallet in on the right" comes to mind.

Amy Austin | October 20, 2004
This thread has gotten *insanely* long, BTW...

Erik Bates | October 21, 2004
I'm all about Badnarik. Someone once told me that you build from the ground up. Vote for the libertarian party (or the 3rd party of your choice) at the local level, but vote for the candidate who most closely represents your values at the national level. His theory was that if you absolutely didn't want Bush to win, you might as well vote for the person who had the best chance of beating him. Once your 3rd party has a strong local presence, then you can start the move to the national stage.

Then again, Badnarik had the idea in the debates, I think it was. Why vote for who you think is the lesser of two evils? Politics shouldn't be thought of in that way. Vote for the person who you want to win. Make your voice heard, even if it means that your guy won't win, it will at least send a message... we hope.

Amy Austin | October 21, 2004
Well put, Erik! That is exactly the mentality that I'm talking about trying to encourage here!

Anna Gregoline | October 21, 2004
Badnarik is a weirdo to me too.

I never asserted my political opponents are dumb. You've blown it all way out of proportion. I happen to think a friend of mine, who you don't know, is smarter than the consideration she's giving her vote. That's my personal opinion. So what? I still love her, and I respect that she's not going to change her mind and her vote is important to her. She still loves me too, even though I'll vote for Kerry. What exactly is your problem again?

Maybe politicians are identical in their tactics and aims, but not in any way their ideas and beliefs, and therein lies the big difference. As I said before, you're free to vote for whoever you want, and I'm not about to tell you that it's wrong if that person aligns with your personal beliefs. But they are not mine - and I happen to think that voting for Bush is a huge mistake after all the facts, the evidence as to why this Administration is to me, evil. Again, my opinion.

I never called you dumb.

And I'm not talking about this anymore because Melissa isn't even here and it's not fair to her for anyone to be talking about her.

Kris Weberg | October 21, 2004
You think this thread is long, try searching out the gay marriage thread of the summer.

3rd parties have, with few exceptions, one problem -- they focus ont he big, unwinnable races instead of building from the local level. A Green candidate in '04 and even '06 is not going to be in a position to win the Presidency. A Green can perhaps win a mayoralty or a state legislature position. If enough of them win at that level, they will build a base and a degree of credibility, and can tart looking at national elections. But as it is, they're n different than a fresh-from-college kid applying for CEO or nothing else.

As to the Ynakees, unless they get 7 runs in the next two innings, they're not an issue until next year.

Amy Austin | October 21, 2004
That's a fair analogy, Kris... the "Think Globally, Act Locally" motto -- so under-rated.

Todd Brotsch | October 21, 2004
Partisan Politics stops at the waters edge...In the Global sense the only party is the American Party.

Kris Weberg | October 21, 2004
GOODBYE, YANKEES!

Dave Mitzman | October 21, 2004
Lest you all forget the Redsox have to win 4 more games. Plus it'll be against one of two very good teams. This will be a rare time where I'm rooting for the national league.

Amy Austin | October 21, 2004
Hmmm... I was thinking that Kris's was a good final post to this thread, but since it was Dave's to begin with...

Dave Mitzman | October 21, 2004
I highly doubt we'll see an end to this thread until baseball is over or they let it rest.

Amy Austin | October 21, 2004
Well, here's hoping that you get the last word in, Dave -- I, for one, say you post "Go Yankees!" and leave it at that... but I think you're probably right.

DIE, thread, DIE!!!

Kris Weberg | October 21, 2004
I didn't say "Go Sox," I just said "Goodbye Yankees." Heck, I didn't even say, 'Hooray, Yankees lost."

I just noted that they're, well, done for the season.

So, with disclaimers, I'll try that again.

*Ahem*

GOODBYE YANKEES!

Anthony Lewis | October 21, 2004
I tried to be quiet, and let the events of earlier speak for themselves.

But I can't.

So here goes.

Congratulations to the Boston Red Sox, a team that will go down in history as the ONLY team in MLB history to win four straight games after being on the brink of elimination. I am no Red Sox fan by any means, but I appreciate the accomplishment.

I've made no bones about the fact that I am a Met fan. My team...well, it sucks. I accept it. And I take the abuse from Yankee fans daily. This is why I am also a Yankee hater. And as I stated before, I hate the Yankees because of their fans. And if those of you say that I take a certain delight in the Yankees failure because the Mets couldn't do any better....GUILTY AS CHARGED! I make no bones about it. If my team can't be there...then I don't want the Yankees to have SHIT! Petty? Yes. I don't really care what a Yankee fan...or anyone else for that matter has to say about it. You can say whatever your heart desires about it. I don't give a flying filth flarn.

This day will be a great day. The sun will shine. The birds will sing. Yankee fans will cry in their beer, and slink away from the rest of the world. The Yankee hats and jerseys will go in the closets for a few days (just like last year, and the year before that, and the year before that). Me? I will rejoice and revel in their misery. And for a few days, all is right in New York City.

Yes, the Mets season was a HUGE failure. The only comfort I can take in this season is that they didn't finish in last place, we have a few players to build on, and that we beat the Yankees four games out of six (including a sweep at Shea Stadium). But the Mets were NOT built to win it all. The Yankees WERE. And so, by winning the first three games...then choking the rest of the way, and becoming the first team in MLB history to win the first three, then lose the last four and lose the series...(run-on sentence, I know), the Yankee season is now officially a HUGE WASTE. A FAILURE!!!

My Yankee fan friends, who called me up last weekend to crow about "the best team in all of pro sports"....they haven't called since. I don't expect to hear from them for a few days. And I'm going to get a Texas BBQ dinner from a Yankee fan on my job, as the result of a bet that I won the moment the final out was recorded. Life, right now, is sweet.

February 14th, 2004 was a dark day. The Yankees signed A-Rod. I spent that day in the dumps. Not only because the Yankees signed him, but because the Mets screwed that up...amongst other things they screwed up as well. But as I told a Yankee fan after the Mets-Yankee series..."When the chips were down, Alex Rodriguez was nowhere to be found ." I can say the same about the last four games of this series as well.

Spring training will start soon enough, and my optimism will grow for the team from Queens. My heart may be broken again. I hope not. But as long as the Yankees aren't holding the trophy at the end of October...I'll be fine.

Yankees lose! Theeee Yankees LOSE!

Thank you , Lord.

Amen.

Scott Hardie | October 21, 2004
Anna: On the one hand, I envy Melissa for missing all of this hostility in the past week or two. On the other hand, I wouldn't want to try to catch up. :-)

Steve: I originally typed "this is meant to be a respectful forum," which is closer to the truth but makes it sound like I've already been defeated. There are a few minor causes of the increased hostility around here like the presence of so many new users at once, but mainly I think it's because I'm not around much any more to be a calming influence. This board is becoming less and less mine every day. If it ever does turn into the kind of flame-war battleground most web forums are, I won't want it; I'd regretfully discontinue it. What does bashing everyone else in an obnoxious manner possibly accomplish?

Also Steve: I'm seeking new photos from all site users (as announced) to be published with the new site. Amy and Todd have both submitted theirs and I think they're going to wait; James requested that his photo go up right away. So that brings us to you, Steve; think you'll submit a new one? :-)

Amy & Kris: At the current rate, and assuming that I don't have to end it forcibly, this discussion will overtake even the mighty behemoth by weekend.

Here I am, doing what I hate other webmasters doing, posting entirely about the forum itself with no reference to anything else. But Anna wisely started a separate discussion about politics, and I couldn't care less how far the Yankees go in their series, so that's that.

Anthony Lewis | October 21, 2004
Scott, I can assure you that I have said my final words on this subject. I DON'T NEED to say anymore. The Gay Marriage thread is safe. Trust me.

Scott Horowitz | October 21, 2004
I have 2 things to say. I am extremely disappointed with the way this series turned out (but on the plus side, I can sleep for the next week without staying up late to watch baseball). Secondly, I think it is time to officially close this thread.

Todd Brotsch | October 21, 2004
hey Ho, cause you're team is out you're not going to watch any more ball?

Scott Horowitz | October 21, 2004
No, I plan on watching it. But, if it goes into extra innings and I have to work the next day, I'll get some shut eye.

Todd Brotsch | October 21, 2004
RT

I had hoped you wern't serious.

Scott Horowitz | October 21, 2004
I'm pulling for Houston right now, if they win tonight. Otherwise, Go Cards!

Jackie Mason | October 21, 2004
[hidden by author request]

Amy Austin | October 21, 2004
Man! I thought for sure that this was going to be a dead thread! Someone's gonna' owe me a new mouse when my scrolling wheel burns up!!!

Todd Brotsch | October 21, 2004
Wasted money? You can't be serious. Any team who got him would have been doing better. How is it that getting to the ALCS is a failure? I'm happy the Sox won, breaking history twice in as many days.

Kris Weberg | October 21, 2004
I'd like to think that somewhere, somehow, there's a parallel universe where this thread never existed.

If you know of such a place, please tell me. And also, how might I get there?

Amy Austin | October 21, 2004
Hahahaha -- I don't know, Kris... but I'd hitch a ride if I weren't guilty of contributing!

Todd Brotsch | October 21, 2004
well, I think we'd all need to grow beards or something

Star Trek Style

Todd Brotsch | October 28, 2004
WHOOOOOOOOOOOOO

RED SOX WIN!!! RED SOX WIN!!!

Only team ever to win 8 MLB consecutive playoff games

Simply Amazing

Whoooo!



That is all

Kris Weberg | October 28, 2004
BOSOXXXXX!!!!!!! YEAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

Makes me have hope for the Cubbies. If Boston can get out from under the Bambino's curse, a damn goat should be no trouble at all.

Anna Gregoline | October 28, 2004
YEAAAAAAH! RED SOX WIN!

And no Yankees in sight.

86 years coming. Awesome.

Kris Weberg | October 28, 2004
Motherfucking sonuvabastich goat.

Todd Brotsch | October 28, 2004
Time to call out a genocide for all goats.

Scott Horowitz | October 28, 2004
I have 2 words to say: FUCK BOSTON!!!!

that is all

Anthony Lewis | October 28, 2004
"I have 2 words to say: FUCK BOSTON!!!!"

**sigh**

Congratulations Boston.

Todd Brotsch | October 28, 2004
Totally agree Anthony, Totally agree.

John E Gunter | October 28, 2004
Congratz to all Sox fans. Took you guys a long time, but some of us are big enough to congratulate you anyways. :-)

John

Steve West | October 29, 2004
Headline in today's Washington Post - Red Sox Fans Who "Can Now Die Happy", All Die

Jackie Mason | October 30, 2004
[hidden by author request]

Scott Horowitz | October 31, 2004
You're right Jackie. Cubs were in 1908, the white sox werei n 1917 not 1919 (they threw the world series in the 1919 the black sox scandal)

Scott Horowitz | November 18, 2004
I just wanted to restart this thread to be a dick.. hehehehe. JK.

John E Gunter | November 18, 2004
ScottieHo, trust me, you don't have to restart the thread to fill those shoes. ;-)

John

Scott Horowitz | November 18, 2004
Hey... wait a second..... I was looking through the quotes of the movie Garden State the other day, and I found this great quote, "Don't tease me about my hobbies. I don't tease you about being an asshole. " I thought it was hysterical

John E Gunter | November 18, 2004
LOL!

John

Anna Gregoline | November 18, 2004
The title of this thread is so very wrong now.

Scott Horowitz | December 17, 2004
(link)

Todd Brotsch | December 17, 2004
Due respect to Mr. Unit, but I think this is really the last thing the bombers need to do. As great as he is, he might have two good seasons left in him. While Randy has wanted to wear Yankee pinstripes for quite some time I think it's a bad move. They are in sore need of new young talent, not old or past peak grateness. Spend a little money on the Clippers, it'd save George millions down the road.

Scott Horowitz | December 17, 2004
I understand your point Todd. But I look at it this way. Now the Yanks have 4 solid starters (Johnson, Mussina, Wright, Pavano). They need 1 more in my opinion to have a set rotation (I despise Kevin Brown). By signing Johnson, this gives them the time to develop some of their younger talent (Brad Halsey, Alex Graman, and Scott Proctor). Which will be good for the future. Let's see if the trade actually goes through.

Todd Brotsch | December 17, 2004
Of course, you're totally right, there's no doubting at all that Randy still has it in him. He will add that fourth starter, and he's a complete game pitcher. I see it as another "we want to go to the series" move, so lets do what we can to get there this year. Of course not discounting the fact that Randy too has wanted to be in the house that Ruth built, so he's eager to see it done.

But as you said, who knows.....looks like reports are saying it's not as a done deal as we were lead to belive yesterday.

Scott Horowitz | April 4, 2005
Great game last night. A little cold, but great nonetheless. I love Yankee Stadium. It shall be a great season. Boston can take their title and shove it.

Jackie Mason | April 4, 2005
[hidden by author request]

Scott Horowitz | April 4, 2005
I found it funny that they had to change the ending of it because of the Sox winning. I really don't give a shit, personally. Last night at the game people were chanting 2090, as in 86 years for the Sox to win another series.

Michael Paul Cote | April 4, 2005
Yes, Scott, the Sox will shove it right down the Yankee's throat.

John E Gunter | April 4, 2005
Would that be white or red?

Mike Eberhart | April 4, 2005
Who cares!!!!! Until Barry Bonds is officially retired and out of baseball, I won't watch another game. Plus, MLB's bogus steroid policy isn't really going to do anything. Yeah, they just nailed Alex Sanchez, but he's the scapegoat for the league just to say that they are doing something.

Anna Gregoline | April 5, 2005
Not this thread again...

Amy Austin | April 5, 2005
I know, right? I was ignoring him on purpose... but I guess nobody else was going to. ;-)

John E Gunter | April 5, 2005
I wasn't responding to Scott, I was responding to Mike C. :-P

John

Amy Austin | April 5, 2005
Yes, but he responded to Scott! You're unabsolved of your complicity. :-p

Scott Horowitz | April 5, 2005
Am I the only excited person on this site for baseball season? It's excuciating waiting from when football ends to when baseball begins.

Anna Gregoline | April 5, 2005
As far as I can tell, baseball runs year-round.

Jackie Mason | April 5, 2005
[hidden by author request]

Kris Weberg | April 5, 2005
Aside from chasing the Cubs' failed run at the Series playoffs two years ago, I've been turned off of baseball since the strike of the 1990s.

Owners who make millions by running teams and players who make millions for playing a damn game professionally have no business complaining about salaries and spending.

Amy Austin | April 5, 2005
Amen!

Scott Horowitz | April 5, 2005
2-0... Red Sox have the worst record in baseball :)


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